Electroair Ignition System?

[JohnSBA]

I'm thinking about joining a discounted group buy of an Electroair Ignition System for our 172Q (stock 180hp 0360), now that the company has STCs for most 4-cylinder Lycomings. They have a long track record with non-certified aircraft, and auto racing before that. I'm wondering if anyone here has installed one of these in a certified plane, and how it went for you. What was the total installed cost. Have you gotten the 10% fuel reduction claimed by some? Notable improvements in performance? Any changes in CHT?

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Digging up a long dead thread here.

Any news on this? Did you do it? I might be due for magnetos on my plane now. I've been thinking about doing this under a field approval for my Tampico.

Jim

 

[greghughes]

Digging up a long dead thread here.

Any news on this? Did you do it? I might be due for magnetos on my plane now. I've been thinking about doing this under a field approval for my Tampico.

Jim

I have the Electroair ignition on my Warrior, quite happy with it. The flight school/FBO at my home airport has also installed them on all their Cessna rentals. Better power, lower fuel burn, runs a lot smoother, idles great and smooth.

Don't wire it to the standard rotary switch - Instead put in toggle switches, one for the remaining mag (usually left) and one for the Electroair (which typically replaces the right side mag). Keep a key switch for security reasons of course if you want to.

If you can the company, they can probably help you with paperwork info for a field approval. It applies to basically any 4-cylinder Lycoming or Continental the same way, just all that crazy FAA STC stuff. It is what it is...

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Good to hear you like it. If I go with a new magneto I'm already going to spend $850 plus tax, and shipping both ways to just replace a magneto. For $3,500 ($2,900 at aircraft spruce + $600 for tax, paperwork, & install costs) I can put in a better system. The $1,000 is going to get spent one way or the other. So for $2,500 extra I get a better set up. In theory,

.85 GPH savings (10%)
$5.90 per gallon
$5.02 per hour

$1,000 New Slick (Including tax, & shipping for new mag & core)
$400 Slick (500) hour inspection (Including shipping)
$400 Slick (500) hour inspection (Including shipping)
$400 Slick (500) hour inspection (Including shipping)
$2,200 over 2000 hours
$1.10 per hour for Slick Magneto, assuming a magneto can make 2,000 hours being overhauled every 500 hours. I have no data on this.

$10,400 fuel savings over TBO (2,000 hours * $5.02 per hour fuel savings)
$ 2,200 what I would have spent on a Slick Magneto over 2,000 hours
$12,600 in avoided cost over 2,000 hours
$ 6,900 Stay with me on this one. Today's value is $3,500 cost to install Electroair, but the future value of that is higher. I used a 10 year period to get to 2,000 hours. I cut the return down to 4% from 8% to compensate for the fact that the fuel avoidance will go up in value with inflation giving the fuel more value. Yes, I know I should have done two calcualtions, one for fuel value going up and one for the $3,500 going up. Heck, there should be a third calc for the Slick Magnetos. That leaves roughly:

$12,600 - $6,900 = $5,700 savings over 2,000 hours in today's dollars. I think.

Anyway, that gives you $2.75 per hour savings.

$3,500/$2.75 = 1,273 hours to break even on a 10 year schedule.

No wonder the flight schools are all over this. The faster you burn through the 2,000 hours the less the time value of money goes against you. Embry Riddle put 5,000 hours on my plane in five years. They blew through 2,000 hours before the time value of money would have caught up with them. For them it would be more like $4.50 plus in savings per hour, and that assumes that they completely replace their Electroair system every 2,000 hours.

If you only put 50 hours a year on your plane you will not break even.
You WILL gain the other benefits of the system: smoother operation, longer range on a given load of fuel, less down time while getting your magnetos rebuilt.

Interesting.

Jim

 

[SoloEqs]

I was talking with the guy at the air races, and he mentioned that the only difference between the $1900 system and the $3400 system was that one of them had "FAA Approved" written on the sticker.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

I was talking with the guy at the air races, and he mentioned that the only difference between the $1900 system and the $3400 system was that one of them had "FAA Approved" written on the sticker.

Yep, but I fly a certified aircraft so I get to pay for the sticker!

Jim

 

[Silvaire]

... So for $2,500 extra I get a better set up. In theory...

That's a lot of money for a system that only provides a crude and rudimentary variable timing advance on one ignition bank and in doing so introduces complexity into a system designed to autonomously keep running when all else fails . The bottom line is airplanes are basically cruisers, they spend the bulk of their time running at a fixed power setting unlike automobiles which are constantly changing due to traffic and terrain. For something like this to be really beneficial it needs to be coupled with a closed loop ECU controlled injection system, which is something you're not going to get.

I don't have any personal experience with this system but I'm pretty sure that anyone who has spent $2500 replacing one magneto is going to tell you, and themselves, that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

[JHW]

I've been impressed with the system on the experimentals I've flown with it.

So when I did the alternator conversion on the travel air I moved the voltage regulators to make a spot for the electroair computer. Still trying to work up the nerve to spend the money but as much time as I spend in the mid-teens I know the big timing advance at reduced MAP would save me a lot of gas.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

I've been impressed with the system on the experimentals I've flown with it.

So when I did the alternator conversion on the travel air I moved the voltage regulators to make a spot for the electroair computer. Still trying to work up the nerve to spend the money but as much time as I spend in the mid-teens I know the big timing advance at reduced MAP would save me a lot of gas.

That is one of my concerns in my application. My plane does NOT get above 10,000 feet. Is this the wrong application for this equipment?

Jim

 

[kyleb]

That is one of my concerns in my application. My plane does NOT get above 10,000 feet. Is this the wrong application for this equipment.

Jim

Wrong? No, but not optimal. These systems are at their very best at high altitude (with low MP) where the ignition can advance well beyond the standard mag's 25 BTDC timing.

I flew the original Electroair on my RV for 11 years. It, like the current version, is a rebadged Electromotive automotive ignition.

IMO, the big downside of oddball ignitions like the Electroair is that if you break somewhere, you won't find a mechanic with a used but serviceable brain box or hall effect sensor sitting in a box in his workshop. You'll have to have a new one shipped, which means an overnight stay, at least.

 

[JHW]

That is one of my concerns in my application. My plane does NOT get above 10,000 feet. Is this the wrong application for this equipment.

Jim

it's a grey area. Your mag timing is (generally speaking) set somewhere near MBT for WOT at sea level. The higher you get (and the lower the MAP at WOT) the more timing advance you could use.

 

[Henning]

Wrong? No, but not optimal. These systems are at their very best at high altitude (with low MP) where the ignition can advance well beyond the standard mag's 25 BTDC timing.

I flew the original Electroair on my RV for 11 years. It, like the current version, is a rebadged Electromotive automotive ignition.

IMO, the big downside of oddball ignitions like the Electroair is that if you break somewhere, you won't find a mechanic with a used but serviceable brain box or hall effect sensor sitting in a box in his workshop. You'll have to have a new one shipped, which means an overnight stay, at least.

Or carry spares.

 

[kyleb]

Or carry spares.

$3k worth?

 

[Henning]

$3k worth?

Well, you'll have to buy them anyway, then pay the FedEx Red charge and the hotel bill + rental car.... I run boats that carry several hundred thousand dollars worth of spares, some of them into the millions if you count spares for the work gear onboard.

 

[denverpilot]

Kinda a side note but it was interesting to watch the ODB timing data on my buddy's newish 5.0L Ford F-150 on his Garmin the other day. 40 degrees advanced in highway cruise. Amazing.

 

[SoloEqs]

I flew the original Electroair on my RV for 11 years. It, like the current version, is a rebadged Electromotive automotive ignition.

IMO, the big downside of oddball ignitions like the Electroair is that if you break somewhere

In 11 years, how many times did it break?

 

[David]

Any try one of these?
http://emagair.com/P-MAGII.htm

It's an electronic magneto with a small alternator built into it. If your battery goes dead, the alternator provides enough juice to keep firing the plugs.

 

[kyleb]

In 11 years, how many times did it break?

I experienced 3 failures in 11 years and a little over 800 hours. Two of the failures were the pick-up for the hall effect sensor and one was a failure of the circuit board in the system's brainbox. The circuit board failure resulted in me retiring the system and moving to a different ignition.

 

[Silvaire]

Any try one of these?
http://emagair.com/P-MAGII.htm

It's an electronic magneto with a small alternator built into it. If your battery goes dead, the alternator provides enough juice to keep firing the plugs.

Wow! kinda like a regular old magneto eh?

 

[David]

Wow! kinda like a regular old magneto eh?

Yep but with some other very nice features.

 

[SoloEqs]

I experienced 3 failures in 11 years and a little over 800 hours. Two of the failures were the pick-up for the hall effect sensor and one was a failure of the circuit board in the system's brainbox. The circuit board failure resulted in me retiring the system and moving to a different ignition.

3 failures in 800 hours is a bit steep.

What did you replace it with?

 

[kyleb]

3 failures in 800 hours is a bit steep.

What did you replace it with?

A pMag, which is another electronic ignition.

 

[Jeff K]

Company has been claiming for the last 2-3 years an STC for a 6 cylinder Lycoming is 4-6 months away. Last time I spoke with them (August 2013) they had yet to start on the process.

Anyone get a field approval for one of their 6 cylinder kits on an IO-540?

 

[David]

A pMag, which is another electronic ignition.

Kyle,
Did you go with two PMags? What's your opinion about them?
Thanks
Dave

 

[SoloEqs]

Any try one of these?
http://emagair.com/P-MAGII.htm

It's an electronic magneto with a small alternator built into it. If your battery goes dead, the alternator provides enough juice to keep firing the plugs.

Their website proudly announces that they will be at Oshkosh in 2006.

 

[David]

Their website proudly announces that they will be at Oshkosh in 2006.

So they stink at maintaining a website . There's a tab on the left hand side for "Airshows 2013". I emailed them a question last week and got an immediate response. I followed up with a phone call and they answered their phone. Imagine that . I'll take that kind of customer service over a fantastic website anytime.

 

[jhausch]

Well, you'll have to buy them anyway, then pay the FedEx Red charge and the hotel bill + rental car.... I run boats that carry several hundred thousand dollars worth of spares, some of them into the millions if you count spares for the work gear onboard.

Less UL issues on the boat

Maybe the next big thing in biz jets in China and India will be "Shadow Jets"
Hmmmm, interesting thought, eh?

 

[kyleb]

Kyle,
Did you go with two PMags? What's your opinion about them?
Thanks
Dave

Just one. I have a mag on the other side.

My opinion is that they are worth a try. Easy installation, and the obvious benefits of a hotter spark and advanced timing. Mine has worked flawlessly for over a year, but that is a very small sample.

My concern is that they include circuit boards, which are both temperature and vibration sensitive, and they operate in a pretty hostile environment given that they are bolted to the engine. The manufacturer puts a "telltale" temperature sticker on each pmag and admonishes users to address the heat issue if the telltale changes color(200f). In warm weather I work hard to point the aircraft into the wind after shut-down, and it leave the oil door open for better ventilation.

There are a lot of folks using them in the RV community. Most users seem pleased by their performance and by the factory's support.

 

[N321SR]

I installed an Electroair system on my IO540k1b5 in 2007 and it's worked flawlessly since then. I really notice the advantages in starting, idle and especially high altitude operation LOP. I typically cruise in the mid teens at 17"mp/2300rpm, @10gph 218 kts with a very smooth running engine. This was just not possible with 2 mags.

 

[SoloEqs]

I'll take that kind of customer service over a fantastic website anytime.

Same here.

However, I just worry a little when a company that wants me to trust my life to their product ignores things like this for such a long time. Their web site is the primary advertising and contact point for their company -- when they don't update it for over 7 years, you have to wonder if they don't KNOW or don't CARE, neither of which inspires confidence. What else are they not paying attention to?

This, of course, is simply impression, and may have no connection whatsoever to their product quality, but it makes it look like they're in this as a hobby rather than being serious.

 

[David]

Thanks for the responses. I'm thinking about what to do in the future. The BTH mags on my Gipsy major are fine and can be rebuilt if needed. There's also a Slick magneto conversion but that conversion eliminates the mechanical spark advance of the BTH mags. Going with the P-Mags seems like a better choice than the Slicks.

Just one. I have a mag on the other side.

My opinion is that they are worth a try. Easy installation, and the obvious benefits of a hotter spark and advanced timing. Mine has worked flawlessly for over a year, but that is a very small sample.

My concern is that they include circuit boards, which are both temperature and vibration sensitive, and they operate in a pretty hostile environment given that they are bolted to the engine. The manufacturer puts a "telltale" temperature sticker on each pmag and admonishes users to address the heat issue if the telltale changes color(200f). In warm weather I work hard to point the aircraft into the wind after shut-down, and it leave the oil door open for better ventilation.

There are a lot of folks using them in the RV community. Most users seem pleased by their performance and by the factory's support.

I installed an Electroair system on my IO540k1b5 in 2007 and it's worked flawlessly since then. I really notice the advantages in starting, idle and especially high altitude operation LOP. I typically cruise in the mid teens at 17"mp/2300rpm, @10gph 218 kts with a very smooth running engine. This was just not possible with 2 mags.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

I can't get them to follow through with what they say they will do. I've been promised, several times, that they are sending me a copy of a field approval that was used on a Cessna 170 that I can use as the basis for writing up a field approval for my Tampico. I'm sure glad I went ahead and had the 500 hour inspections done on my Slick mags! Maybe by the time it is time to get the inspection done again I will have a 337 submitted to the FAA for field approval!

Jim

 

[Geico266]

Company has been claiming for the last 2-3 years an STC for a 6 cylinder Lycoming is 4-6 months away. Last time I spoke with them (August 2013) they had yet to start on the process.

Anyone get a field approval for one of their 6 cylinder kits on an IO-540?

They are not available yet, even in the experiment market.

 

[Geico266]

Same here.

However, I just worry a little when a company that wants me to trust my life to their product ignores things like this for such a long time. Their web site is the primary advertising and contact point for their company -- when they don't update it for over 7 years, you have to wonder if they don't KNOW or don't CARE, neither of which inspires confidence. What else are they not paying attention to?

This, of course, is simply impression, and may have no connection whatsoever to their product quality, but it makes it look like they're in this as a hobby rather than being serious.

It is the wrong impression based on faulty logic. Call them and ask them. Talk to people who have flown with the pMag on their airplanes then decide. Deciding on an outdate line on a web site? Silly.

To say their website hasn't been updated in 7 years then read a tab they have showing 2013 airshows is childish drama on your part.

 

[Ted]

Any ideas when they might be STCing the 6-cylinder models? This would be an interesting add-on for us, especially since I like to fly at 11k or so on my northbound legs typically.

 

[Geico266]

Any ideas when they might be STCing the 6-cylinder models? This would be an interesting add-on for us, especially since I like to fly at 11k or so on my northbound legs typically.

They don't have the 6 cylinder version available yet, for anyone. I have two on order for the last 2 years.

 

[Ted]

I installed an Electroair system on my IO540k1b5 in 2007 and it's worked flawlessly since then. I really notice the advantages in starting, idle and especially high altitude operation LOP. I typically cruise in the mid teens at 17"mp/2300rpm, @10gph 218 kts with a very smooth running engine. This was just not possible with 2 mags.

They don't have the 6 cylinder version available yet, for anyone. I have two on order for the last 2 years.

So how did our friend with the super-fast plane get his 6 years ago? Did they stop selling them?

As someone who flies 6-cylinder engines and is all about making upgrades that help efficiency, it's annoyed me that there seems to be little available either certified or experimental for the 6s. I'd be all over it.

 

[kyleb]

So how did our friend with the super-fast plane get his 6 years ago? Did they stop selling them?

As someone who flies 6-cylinder engines and is all about making upgrades that help efficiency, it's annoyed me that there seems to be little available either certified or experimental for the 6s. I'd be all over it.

Electroair has offered a 6 cylinder system in the experimental market for some time. Unlike the 4 cylinder version, the 6 cylinder version has not been STC'd.

The Pmag people have promised a 6 cylinder system for some time but have not delivered (yet). There is no STC'd offering (even for a 4 cylinder engine) from the Pmag folks.

 

[Ted]

Electroair has offered a 6 cylinder system in the experimental market for some time. Unlike the 4 cylinder version, the 6 cylinder version has not been STC'd.

The Pmag people have promised a 6 cylinder system for some time but have not delivered (yet). There is no STC'd offering (even for a 4 cylinder engine) from the Pmag folks.

I realize that the experimental market is mostly 4-cylinders, which drives that market. The irony is that you'd end up getting a more significant cost savings on the 6-cylinders. Assuming the efficiency improvements are even close to advertised, they'd pay for themselves in fuel savings on the 310 within a couple of years.

 

[kyleb]

I realize that the experimental market is mostly 4-cylinders, which drives that market. The irony is that you'd end up getting a more significant cost savings on the 6-cylinders. Assuming the efficiency improvements are even close to advertised, they'd pay for themselves in fuel savings on the 310 within a couple of years.

There are technical issues with moving to a 6 cylinder set-up. I can't remember if it is a gearing issue internal to the EI or if it is some issue with the crank position pick-up.