EL Paso / Mexico shortcut

ecrane99

ecrane99

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Ed
Anyone know if I can fly this direct? It will put me over mexico.
E35 airport -> CUS vor

I have done similar when flying to detroit and flying over canada while in contact with atc.


Thanks
 
1. Contact AOPA
2. Contact the ElPaso ATC and ask for the latest rules and such. Canada & Mexico are two very different situations.
3. Do you have a 406 ELT?
 
Not in the same way you can overfly Canada. Its a huge pain, and you're better off staying in US Airspace the whole way instead.
 
Not sure what the real rules are, but staying within the US seems to add only about 10nm to the trip. Even if the rules say okay, I am not sure I would want to chance getting intercepted in Mexican territory and dealing with the Mexican authorities.
 
no, you won't get it.
only time there is overflying is when there is a prearranged agreement like the loc rwy 4 at elp you have to go into Mx.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
no, you won't get it.
only time there is overflying is when there is a prearranged agreement like the loc rwy 4 at elp you have to go into Mx.
Click to expand...

Take that to the bank. Dave's spent many a night in the Mexican jails because of his many and varied airspace violations.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
no, you won't get it.
only time there is overflying is when there is a prearranged agreement like the loc rwy 4 at elp you have to go into Mx.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the responses. My question is answered clearly.
Being based in the northeast, it's a new teritory for me.
 
I know it's already been answered, but I'll also mention that insurance may be an issue. I believe that you must have liability coverage by a Mexican company.

http://www.findaircraft.com/services/insurance/territorial.html said:
When traveling to Mexico, the Mexican government does not recognize your policy issued by a U.S. aviation insurance underwriter. As a result, you must have proof of Mexican liability insurance in your possession, issued through a Mexican insurance company. Some U.S. underwriters purchase these certificates from a Mexican insurance company and include them with your U.S. issued policy at no additional cost to you. Some underwriters will sell this certificate to you at a premium that will just cover their cost. Others do not provide the service at all. Check with your agent if you are not sure about Mexican liability coverage.
Click to expand...

Edit: Apparently, according to the posts below, this was once true, but is no longer. (Good thing I used "may be" and "I believe" above, huh!) :)
 
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technically you are supposed to be on some kind of a flight plan if you even fly within the ADIZ on the southern border.....but in my 18 years here I have never known anyone to do it, nor of a violation for not doing so. Another unenforced rule. Mind the balloon over there.
 
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gprellwitz said:
I know it's already been answered, but I'll also mention that insurance may be an issue. I believe that you must have liability coverage by a Mexican company.
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The rules were changed a few years ago. Now the requirement is that the policy must say that it is valid in Mexico. AOPA has noted the change. Some brokers haven't noticed the change but in at least one case the policy they provided does admit that the coverage is valid in Mexico. In other words, the underwriters know about the current status even if the brokers don't.

It takes a little digging to find the actual requirements for Mexico.
 
Quite a bit of misinformation so far.

If you cross the contiguous ADIZ, which you will on a flight across the Mexican border, you must be on a DVFR or IFR flight plan and have a discrete transponder code. You must be in contact with US ATC when crossing the border into the US. This can include FSS, not necessarily an approach controller.

For any flight crossing the ADIZ, your airplane must display 12 inch rgistration numbers.

There is no current requirement for a 406 MHz ELT in either the US or Mexico now. Mexico has announced an effective date of this requirement in April 2010, although it has been delayed several times already.

You do not need Mexican insurance for an overflight. Even if you land in Mexico, all you need to show is that you have sufficient liability insurance that has territorial coverage in Mexico. The required amount is somewhere in the $2-300,000 range, and it need not be written by a Mexican company. Again, this has nothing to do for an overflight, but in case of accident, you would want to be sure your insurance does cover you in Mexico.

So to answer your original question, yes you can do that flight. File a flight plan with FSS (no DVFR's accepted via DUAT anymore), and get a transponder code from FSS when you open your flight plan. Advise FSS you will monitor their frequency, and always monitor 121.5. It is really that simple.

Jon
 
All the talk about ADIZ and Defense areas has me looking at the sectionals.
I have a new question:

Can I fly through elpaso from KOZA via:
v198 to arizona
without being on a flight plan or violating defense airspace? v198 seems to traverse a defense area just east of elpaso. then gets very close to the border/adiz just west of el paso. This is is the way i preder to get out to California, but need to be clear before I go.

Thanks
 
Can I fly through elpaso from KOZA via:
v198 to arizona
Click to expand...
Yes
without being on a flight plan
Click to expand...
The regs say otherwise, but I guarantee you dozens of vfr flights go through the tight space between the south end of the Franklins and the Mexican border over the Asarco stacks every day without a flight plan. Its just not a reg that is enforced. Silly regs are that way! Maybe MikeElPaso can comment.
or violating defense airspace?
Click to expand...
same as above. You will be "violating" a rule that no one cares about.

I have, both as vfr traffic with flight following, and also on an ifr flight plan, wanted to avoid weather by entering Mexican airspace....and have been told quite clearly 'it ain't happening'. I would love to hear its changed, but in general we do not ever plan a flight or hope to pass very far over the border into old Mexico unless we plan to do the full deal with a stop on both sides including flight plans, customs, notifications etc etc. Just stay on the north side of the border and you will be fine.
Have a good trip!
 
This might not be relevant to a VFR flight but I once filed a direct IFR route that took us over Mexico but ATC gave us vectors that kept us within the US.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
no, you won't get it.
only time there is overflying is when there is a prearranged agreement like the loc rwy 4 at elp you have to go into Mx.
Click to expand...

Show me the Regs that state that! Everytime I fly to Douglas, AZ and land on Rwy 3 I fly into Mexico. You don't have a choice since you can throw a rock into Mexico from the border. I always file a NASA report because NO ONE, not even the AOPA attorneys can identify any regulation that allows you to break the ADIZ for takeoff / landing purposes.
 
slowjoe said:
Show me the Regs that state that!
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If you know me you realize I am not a Regulation-Monger. I am much more interested in practical aviation; what people do, and what works.
There are many airports along the border that you have to do as you say, I myself have done it many times (overfly Mexico while in the pattern). That is what is done and that is what works. No one will say anything.
In the OPs situation he is talking about a cross country that will spend an hour overflying Mexico and will go dozens of miles south of the border. In my experience, and what other pilots tell me, that will not work. I would love to know it's changed and does work - but so far, no one has told me of such a thing.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
If you know me you realize I am not a Regulation-Monger. I am much more interested in practical aviation; what people do, and what works.
There are many airports along the border that you have to do as you say, I myself have done it many times (overfly Mexico while in the pattern). That is what is done and that is what works. No one will say anything.
In the OPs situation he is talking about a cross country that will spend an hour overflying Mexico and will go dozens of miles south of the border. In my experience, and what other pilots tell me, that will not work. I would love to know it's changed and does work - but so far, no one has told me of such a thing.
Click to expand...

Yes, but "what works" is irrelevant. Technically, and legally, crossing the ADIZ without a DVFR ir IFR flight plan can get you in trouble. The regulations need to be modified to address the airports that require Mexican / Canadian overflight for takeoffs and landings. That was my point.
 
4CornerFlyer said:
Quite a bit of misinformation so far.

If you cross the contiguous ADIZ, which you will on a flight across the Mexican border, you must be on a DVFR or IFR flight plan and have a discrete transponder code. You must be in contact with US ATC when crossing the border into the US. This can include FSS, not necessarily an approach controller.

For any flight crossing the ADIZ, your airplane must display 12 inch rgistration numbers.

There is no current requirement for a 406 MHz ELT in either the US or Mexico now. Mexico has announced an effective date of this requirement in April 2010, although it has been delayed several times already.

You do not need Mexican insurance for an overflight. Even if you land in Mexico, all you need to show is that you have sufficient liability insurance that has territorial coverage in Mexico. The required amount is somewhere in the $2-300,000 range, and it need not be written by a Mexican company. Again, this has nothing to do for an overflight, but in case of accident, you would want to be sure your insurance does cover you in Mexico.

So to answer your original question, yes you can do that flight. File a flight plan with FSS (no DVFR's accepted via DUAT anymore), and get a transponder code from FSS when you open your flight plan. Advise FSS you will monitor their frequency, and always monitor 121.5. It is really that simple.

Jon
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what everyone has said so far....aside from the insurance posts (which were correct a few years ago), I haven't seen any misinformation yet.

Can you do it? Sure, you can. Is it worth the hassle? Probably not, as you have to open a DVFR flight plan, contact FSS and give an estimated border crossing time, be accurate to that time, then contact FSS again for the 2nd border crossing time, be accurate to that time, the whole time squawking an assigned transponder code.

The question is - do you have to land at an airport of entry afterward? I honestly don't know the answer to that one. What about the new manifest rule...does that apply as well?
 
To answer Nick's questions,

No, you do not need to land at an airport of entry or have any contact with the Customs service if you overfly but do not land in another country.

No, you do not need an eAPIS manifest for an overflight, only on flights into or out of the US with landings in another country.

If you file a flight plan for cross county flights anyway, I'm not sure what the hassle is. It is no more difficult to file a DVFR flight plan than a standard VFR or IFR plan. You call FSS to open the flight plan and get a transponder code at that time. You can close the flight plan normally as soon as you're back in the US.

I agree that if it's only a difference of 10 miles (I didn't measure this personally), it might not be worth it.

I think an implication that a 406 ELT is required is misinformation. The insurance requirements were clarified a few years ago, but you can easily find someone who will swear you need a Mexican policy to go there. I rarely disagree with Dave T, but the suggestion that many people fly across the Contiguous US ADIZ without a flight plan is dangerous advice. Do not do that.

Jon
 
The neat thing about POA is, in general you may feel free to disagree, present your thoughts and experiences on a topic: Egos have been checked at the door, so no offense should be taken, we are all here to learn!

In fact I do not see much disagreement. I agree with Jon, that if you plan to go well across the adiz and deep into Mexico, you will need to comply with all those requirements. I don't disagree either that those requirements exist.

However, you aren't going to need to do all that if you fly V198 through the elp area.
And if they are allowing overflights I would love to know about it.

Mind the rocket range N of Van Horn, the balloon to 15K' S of Deming, stay clear of the R-510X N of ElPaso, have fun.
 

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However, you aren't going to need to do all that if you fly V198 through the elp area.



---------------
Thanks for the suggestions everyone! Can you guys just clerify one thing for me? My plan now is to fly v198 through ELP to Arizona...

I want to avoid IFR so I can fly low and check out the scenery.

When approaching Elpaso (defense area). Can I just ask ELP approach for advisories and fly on through? Or should I file an IFR flight plan from OZA to get through that area?

Thanks much.
 
ecrane99 said:
When approaching Elpaso (defense area). Can I just ask ELP approach for advisories and fly on through? Or should I file an IFR flight plan from OZA to get through that area?
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I do, 25 mi from the airport callem up with the atis, say you are 'direct El Paso, direct Columbus request radar advisories through the area'. They will like you at 10.5 but 8.5 will work and 6.5 probably means some vectoring. They will cut you loose the other side of the Franklin Mtns....don't wander too far N of v198 near Dona Ana 5T6 as they do parachute dropping on that side of the field. No ifr needed; we are pretty casual out here. Check out that crater west of 5T6 when you go past.

Look wind is out of the southwest, and the balloon is on the ground - no worries!
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...24,-107.864274&spn=0.017864,0.038409&t=h&z=15
 
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The times I flew it, I was always on an IFR plan, though on several occasions I departed one of the airports in the ELP area VFR and got clearance in the air.

Always V198, never a shortcut through Mexican airspace.
 
Hypothet for discussion:

You're flying along, safely and legally on north side of the border, when WX forces a deviation around WX to the south, taking you into Mexican airspace ("forces," meaning pilot's discretion to maintain safety).

What result?
 
Spike, there is something written in the regs or the aim addressing this....basically parrotting the already-accepted provision that a pic may do whatever is necessary for the safety of flight. Ie don't fly into the TZ.
However, I would not expect a 'pat on the back and home you go'. If you violate the airspace to a significant degree, you will likely have the authorities (FAA, customs, etc) to deal with....and if you actually land in Mexico I would not be surprised if you spent time examining the insides of one of their fine criminal restraint establishments.
And everyone will be probably be examining your decision, with the attitude of "how did you get yourself in that situation?".
I have no past cases or even discussions with anyone involved to base the above on, its merely conjecture on my part.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Spike, there is something written in the regs or the aim addressing this....basically parrotting the already-accepted provision that a pic may do whatever is necessary for the safety of flight. Ie don't fly into the TZ.
However, I would not expect a 'pat on the back and home you go'. If you violate the airspace to a significant degree, you will likely have the authorities (FAA, customs, etc) to deal with....and if you actually land in Mexico I would not be surprised if you spent time examining the insides of one of their fine criminal restraint establishments.
And everyone will be probably be examining your decision, with the attitude of "how did you get yourself in that situation?".
I have no past cases or even discussions with anyone involved to base the above on, its merely conjecture on my part.
Click to expand...

All logical.

I was not really envisioning any likelihood of a land-out; merely an airborne diversion to remain clear of (say) a line of cells.
 
I called El Paso atct 915 774-9400 and talked to a nice controller there.
He says that in the El Paso area, you can deviate over Mexico for a thunderstorm if you are talking to them and get their approval. They have a local agreement with Juarez and can coordinate with them.
He said you might get that from abq ctr in similar circumstances (talking to them and have a clearance to do so) but they probably would not like it.
My conjecture above about violations stands, if you just do it without anyone's permission.


And he said flying in the ADIZ is not a problem, they don't really care.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I called El Paso atct 915 774-9400 and talked to a nice controller there.
He says that in the El Paso area, you can deviate over Mexico for a thunderstorm if you are talking to them and get their approval. They have a local agreement with Juarez and can coordinate with them.
He said you might get that from abq ctr in similar circumstances (talking to them and have a clearance to do so) but they probably would not like it.
My conjecture above about violations stands, if you just do it without anyone's permission.


And he said flying in the ADIZ is not a problem, they don't really care.
Click to expand...

Went and got that straight from the source, good job!:cheerswine:

You'll probably be chided now from someone here for not following "forum protocol" and listening to all the second and third hand "guesstimates" on what someone should actually do. :rolleyes:
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Went and got that straight from the source, good job!:cheerswine:

You'll probably be chided now from someone here for not following "forum protocol" and listening to all the second and third hand "guesstimates" on what someone should actually do. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Nope, he did right. Got the information and then posted it on an internet forum so that we can all benefit.

You still don't get it.
 
Just talked to a cd controller 888 766-8267 with a hypothetical flight that started and ended in the US, whose path fell within Mexico -- She said expect to be routed within the United States and not over Mexico.
 
What slight inconvenience that might be is nothing compared to what I had to deal with in my northeast days. On a flight from Vermont to New Jersey, you get a clearance via Rhode Island. Look at the map...it's not on the way.

What surprises me is that days into a thread about flying over Mexico, no-one has chimed in about how dangerous it is.

Jon
 
4CornerFlyer said:
What slight inconvenience that might be is nothing compared to what I had to deal with in my northeast days. On a flight from Vermont to New Jersey, you get a clearance via Rhode Island. Look at the map...it's not on the way.

What surprises me is that days into a thread about flying over Mexico, no-one has chimed in about how dangerous it is.

Jon
Click to expand...

At the risk of opening a can of worms, what is dangerous about it? I have heard of no particular problems other bureaucratic ones, and that's not "dangerous," just irritating (and largely preventable by proper planning; simply bring along Dave Siciliano's nieces :D ).
 
It isn't, but usually as soon as the word Mexico appears, someone points out the astounding number of drug murders in the border cities, plane thefts and highjackings, with the implication that one must be crazy to even fly over the country.

I was saying I'm just surprised that comment hadn't shown up yet.
Jon
 
4CornerFlyer said:
It isn't, but usually as soon as the word Mexico appears, someone points out the astounding number of drug murders in the border cities, plane thefts and highjackings, with the implication that one must be crazy to even fly over the country.

I was saying I'm just surprised that comment hadn't shown up yet.
Jon
Click to expand...


Just out of curiosity, and knowing that I would really like to fly along alot of our southern border. are there any airports that are better avoided for overnight stays? I haven't found too many airports that I wouldn't mind leaving my plane at. Although I feel better when sleeping under the wing.

Barb
 
Today I heard something that reminded me of this thread.
Around 11am a bizjet - Falcon or ? asked ABQ center in the El Paso area if they could take a shortcut through Mexico. They were denied. The pilot then said they had experienced this (denial) before and wondered if 'there was any particular reason'? I missed the answer as I had other duties but it was very short, I suspect the controller did not know or it would have taken too long to explain.

Wondering how the OP's flight turned out, too.
 
6 months later and everything changes.
Today I was offered, as a complete surprise and unrequested by me, a shortcut that took me over Mexico!
For some reason, the Flightaware track is not visible to me right now (all I see is a blank map with some radar returns).....maybe it will reappear? It was there at noon.
Anyway I was given a shortcut to a fix way up the line and it was into Mexican airspace. There was no weather at the time. We never asked for the shortcut. Just a helpful controller and presumably, some new inter-nation atc accomodations in place!

Happened again on the way back, so 'things must be different now'.
 
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