EAA event but no EA allowed

S Joslin

S Joslin

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S Joslin
I fly a lot of Young Eagles events for our local EAA chapter, as do a whole bunch of the local DFW pilots. I received the local chapter's newsletter today...

"The young eagles committee has planned a Young Eagles event for April 16, 2016 with a rain date of April 30. The YE rally will be flown out of the Grand Prairie Municipal airport at the Aviator Air Hanger, just south of the terminal. The young eagles participants for this rally will be Boy Scouts and should not exceed about 40 Young Eagles. Note that the Boy Scout rules require that experimental, amateur-built planes cannot be used and the volunteer YE pilots must at least a private pilot certificate and have at least 250 hours total flying time."

I realize this is probably some kind of insurance requirement and I'm not slighting our local EAA chapter, but seriously...Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!! Experimental aircraft CANNOT be used at an Experimental Aircraft Association event. This just drips with irony.
 
Hm....I wonder if this is a local Boy Scout thing. We'v never seen that restriction in Colorado, and fly the Boy Scouts at least twice a year.
 
Must be a local Boy Scout directive. We don't have that restriction in Fla. To have an Eaa young eagle flight and not allow EA aircraft goes against what EAA stands for.
 
frfly172 said:
Must be a local Boy Scout directive. We don't have that restriction in Fla. To have an Eaa young eagle flight and not allow EA aircraft goes against what EAA stands for.
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It's a national Boy Scout rule, not local or district. EAA local chapters should know it and adhere to it but ultimately it's the Troop's adult leadership that have to abide by and apply it.
 
The BoySprouts also want all sorts of other bullcrap including a million smooth. We doubled up their flights with the YE so we could get the EAA's rider to give us the requisite requirements. Some of the other requirements we just told the BSA to take a hike on if they wanted these rides.
 
The only time it matters is when it a Boy Scout sponsored event, or when the scout is using the flight for a badge. We fly scouts all the time as YEs in experimental, but they are there as YEs, not scouts.
 
I had never heard of this, and seeing as how I've flown Cub/Boy Scouts in the past, in uniform, at YE events, it just seemed odd to me. But, the link that Todd provided to the BSA rules are pretty clear.
I just can't wrap my head around this, an EAA event, but E-AB aircraft not allowed :facepalm:
But, Angel Flight has the same rule...
 
Also says in there that a "flying plan" has to be submitted.
 
At least the Boy Scouts still let the kids fly. The Girl Scouts do not, much to my wife's (also a pilot, and a former Girl Scout leader) dismay.
 
Jay Honeck said:
At least the Boy Scouts still let the kids fly. The Girl Scouts do not, much to my wife's (also a pilot, and a former Girl Scout leader) dismay.
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Is that related to the fatal that happened only about five miles from my home? Can't remember which type of scout leader was killed, but it wasn't pretty.
 
I don't mean this as an insult to those of you who are/were involved in Scouting, but the appeal of that organization never really stuck for me (at least based on my experiences with them from childhood). I have always been a very adventurous person, even from childhood, and I was drawn to scouting with hopes of enjoying some great backcountry/wilderness adventures. My dad was an Eagle Scout in his day, and got me involved at the Cub Scout level. I dropped out of Boy Scouts after a while, deciding that the organization was clunky, top heavy, and so laden with needless bureaucracy that it failed to really do the things I joined to do in the first place. Granted, my exact explanation of those problems certainly wasn't described in that vernacular as a child, but the idea felt the same to me then as it does now… they weren't really involved in "scouting", as much as they loved to have silly meetings with lots of ceremony, and spent most of the rest of the time on arts and crafts projects.

I'm certainly not against the concept of the Boy Scouts, but I just think it is very difficult for most outsiders to work within that group's policies… unless you're just planning to enjoy arts and crafts time.

Admittedly, I may have just been seeing a problem with one region in this organization, but I wasn't impressed with what I saw. In the past others have described different experiences than I had.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Also says in there that a "flying plan" has to be submitted.
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Maybe not 100% accurate phraseology but every YE event I've participated in has had one. A route that everyone will fly is established and this is what everyone must fly. It keeps everyone going in the same direction...on the same circuit...less chance of running into each other that way.
 
We never have a plan for the air, just for how we're going to handle pick up and drop offs. Normally, I take off and get out of the pattern. If the kids are local enough to the airport, we'll try to fly over their house or school.
 
denverpilot said:
Is that related to the fatal that happened only about five miles from my home? Can't remember which type of scout leader was killed, but it wasn't pretty.
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Pretty sure the limitation on Girl Scouts flying predates that accident. I'm not sure what type of scouts they were either, or if it was a sanctioned event.
 
Coloradokevin said:
I don't mean this as an insult to those of you who are/were involved in Scouting, but the appeal of that organization never really stuck for me (at least based on my experiences with them from childhood). I have always been a very adventurous person, even from childhood, and I was drawn to scouting with hopes of enjoying some great backcountry/wilderness adventures. My dad was an Eagle Scout in his day, and got me involved at the Cub Scout level. I dropped out of Boy Scouts after a while, deciding that the organization was clunky, top heavy, and so laden with needless bureaucracy that it failed to really do the things I joined to do in the first place. Granted, my exact explanation of those problems certainly wasn't described in that vernacular as a child, but the idea felt the same to me then as it does now… they weren't really involved in "scouting", as much as they loved to have silly meetings with lots of ceremony, and spent most of the rest of the time on arts and crafts projects.

I'm certainly not against the concept of the Boy Scouts, but I just think it is very difficult for most outsiders to work within that group's policies… unless you're just planning to enjoy arts and crafts time.

Admittedly, I may have just been seeing a problem with one region in this organization, but I wasn't impressed with what I saw. In the past others have described different experiences than I had.
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The variation between regions and troops is large. While just about everything has changed since Baden-Powell's day, there's still plenty of fun to be had in scouting.
 
From the organization's perspective, this makes perfect sense. And E-AB aircraft could be almost anything built by anybody. The organization is responsible for the safety of the kids, and it has to make blanket rules to apply across the board. While I'm sure your homebuilt is just as safe or safer than most planes with a standard airworthiness certificate, they damn sure all aren't like that. Sure, there are standard ships that are borderline too, but general rules are based on generalities.
 
denverpilot said:
Is that related to the fatal that happened only about five miles from my home? Can't remember which type of scout leader was killed, but it wasn't pretty.
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Dunno. Mary was a Girl Scout leader in the late 90s/early 2000s, and she was not allowed to fly her girls as a scout leader.

So she did it as a Young Eagle flight.
 
I guess beggars can be choosers after all.
 
Lindberg said:
From the organization's perspective, this makes perfect sense. And E-AB aircraft could be almost anything built by anybody. The organization is responsible for the safety of the kids, and it has to make blanket rules to apply across the board. While I'm sure your homebuilt is just as safe or safer than most planes with a standard airworthiness certificate, they damn sure all aren't like that. Sure, there are standard ships that are borderline too, but general rules are based on generalities.
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Poorly thought out.

So a shade tree maintained certified is "safe" but a spit and polish RV8 isn't.

Thinking whomever made this dumb rule up wasn't a pilot or didn't have much flight experience.
 
Can't use experimental for commercial ops. Maybe somebody at the Boy Scouts knew that and thought it made sense. Personally I wouldn't send a kid up with an average private pilot. I'm surprised there isn't a commercial pilot requirement, too.
 
Stewartb said:
Can't use experimental for commercial ops. Maybe somebody at the Boy Scouts knew that and thought it made sense. Personally I wouldn't send a kid up with an average private pilot. I'm surprised there isn't a commercial pilot requirement, too.
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The accident mentioned by @denverpilot , above was a former military, current legacy captain, and experienced in the accident airplane.
 
James331 said:
Poorly thought out.

So a shade tree maintained certified is "safe" but a spit and polish RV8 isn't.

Thinking whomever made this dumb rule up wasn't a pilot or didn't have much flight experience.
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There's no reason why aviation knowledge would be made a condition of employment by the Boy Scouts.
 
Everskyward said:
The accident mentioned by @denverpilot , above was a former military, current legacy captain, and experienced in the accident airplane.
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Basically, life's a risk, there's no way around it. Don't like the risk, don't get on the airplane. The expectation of guaranteed safety is a misguided sense of entitlement. It doesn't mean one has to exercise flippancy in one's behavior, but at some point you have to stop being a coward and accept the sunk cost of getting out of bed. I have a son and I am sensitive to the notion he has more potential to live out than me, but I can't guarantee that outcome, so we just make the most of it, take a deep breath, hold his hand and get out of bed in the morning.
 
Coloradokevin said:
I don't mean this as an insult to those of you who are/were involved in Scouting, but the appeal of that organization never really stuck for me (at least based on my experiences with them from childhood). I have always been a very adventurous person, even from childhood, and I was drawn to scouting with hopes of enjoying some great backcountry/wilderness adventures. My dad was an Eagle Scout in his day, and got me involved at the Cub Scout level. I dropped out of Boy Scouts after a while, deciding that the organization was clunky, top heavy, and so laden with needless bureaucracy that it failed to really do the things I joined to do in the first place. Granted, my exact explanation of those problems certainly wasn't described in that vernacular as a child, but the idea felt the same to me then as it does now… they weren't really involved in "scouting", as much as they loved to have silly meetings with lots of ceremony, and spent most of the rest of the time on arts and crafts projects.

I'm certainly not against the concept of the Boy Scouts, but I just think it is very difficult for most outsiders to work within that group's policies… unless you're just planning to enjoy arts and crafts time.

Admittedly, I may have just been seeing a problem with one region in this organization, but I wasn't impressed with what I saw. In the past others have described different experiences than I had.
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Unfortunately it seems like that is the natural progression of any organization. They start small and for generally good reasons. Then the power-hungry (who are often p--- ants in their daily lives/work) ascend the ranks. A new rule follows every concern until it starts to look like our gov't. HOA's are a textbook example.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Basically, life's a risk, there's no way around it. Don't like the risk, don't get on the airplane. The expectation of guaranteed safety is a misguided sense of entitlement. It doesn't mean one has to exercise flippancy in one's behavior, but at some point you have to stop being a coward and accept the sunk cost of getting out of bed. I have a son and I am sensitive to the notion he has more potential to live out than me, but I can't guarantee that outcome, so we just make the most of it, take a deep breath, hold his hand and get out of bed in the morning.
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That's true, but in many cases, dictating some standard of certification isn't necessarily going to keep you safe, which was my point.
 
Geez you guys are bitching about something that's been that way for a long time and is not a crime against the universe or a a real affront to anyone. I was a scout, my son was a scout and I was heavily involved as a parent until he decided to move on when he got into High School 2 years ago. My daughter is a Senior in High School and is in her last year of Girl Scouts. I built and own an E-AB aircraft and I participate in my Chapter's YE events. Are there aspects of all three orgs that I dislike -- absolutely! However, the pros way out-weigh the cons by a substantial margin IMO. Feel free to be a hater, just understand all of the facts before throwing shade.
 
I was a scout in my youth and I made a number of lifelong friends there. Some rules existed for a long time - we never went to formal "Boy Scout camps" that were owned/run by the larger organization, instead our leaders took us to camps in various other locations, from state and local parks to private lands. One "work" camp out a summer (merit badges, public service projects, and the like) and one "fun" camp.

If all these rules had been in effect, I think most of us would never have joined/stayed in Scouting. It simply would have taken the fun and joy out of it and turned us into little drones that couldn't think for ourselves.

That said, I can pretty much guarantee that I wouldn't participate in scouts today - and I wouldn't be so encouraging if I had had kids. We need to develop leaders, critical thinkers, and folks that can make their own decisions and accept responsibility rather than just following rules. Sometimes mistakes are necessary to learn, but it's all about avoiding mistakes. Sadly, I don't think scouting offers the same opportunity tha it used to.
 
wsuffa said:
If all these rules had been in effect, I think most of us would never have joined/stayed in Scouting. It simply would have taken the fun and joy out of it and turned us into little drones that couldn't think for ourselves.
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This is what turned me off of Girl Scouts... and that was a long time ago.
 
tsts4 said:
Geez you guys are bitching about something that's been that way for a long time and is not a crime against the universe or a a real affront to anyone.
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Really? Maybe the rule about no flights in EA has been in the BSA bylaws forever, maybe it hasn't. I have flown, and others on here have flown, Cub/Boy scouts in the past. Why the double standard? I do take affront to this rule, you wanna use the EAA YE program to give free flights to Boy Scouts? Awesome! Just don't add your own rules. Don't like the Scouts flying in E-AB planes...don't use the program.

A great quote from a popular movie: "You sleep under the blanket of protection I provide and then question the manner in which I provide it"

I've flown several YE events for kids that have been rewarded somehow thru a community program, whether that be disadvantaged youths, kids that have achieved some milestone in school, etc. Is it okay to "expose these kids to danger" by flying them in E-AB planes, but not okay for Boy Scouts? Again, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot...
 
The Boy Scouts have their rules--don't like their rules then don't join scouting. It's that simple. But how does the Boy Scout prohibition against E-AB aircraft become EAA's problem?
 
Stacey, is this the same Chapter that did the mega rally last fall where both you and I flew nearly 25 kids each?
 
Experimental Aircraft Association event, yet Experimental aircraft not allowed. Am I the only one seeing the irony in this?
 
S Joslin said:
Experimental Aircraft Association event, yet Experimental aircraft not allowed. Am I the only one seeing the irony in this?
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Yeah but EAA is more than just Experimental. If a Chapter has enough standard certified aircraft to hold a YE event specifically for the Boy Scouts and Chapter is for it then what's the problem? There's always need for lots of help at YE events besides being a pilot.
 
S Joslin said:
A great quote from a popular movie: "You sleep under the blanket of protection I provide and then question the manner in which I provide it"
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a-few-good-men.jpg
 
tsts4 said:
If a Chapter has enough standard certified aircraft to hold a YE event specifically for the Boy Scouts and Chapter is for it then what's the problem?
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No problem at all. In fact, the last several YE events I've flown at only had one E-AB aircraft attend...mine. I could care less. If it wasn't for the other 7-10 planes that showed up, that weren't E-AB's, there's no way we could have flown 100 kids that day. That's NOT my argument. Again...it's okay to "expose" other kids to E-AB aircraft, but not Boy Scouts?
 
From what I've seen, there's a huge variation in "quality of build" out there.

The BSA are wise to remove this risk from their books. And besides, it may not be of their doing. It's likely an edict handed down from their umbrella liability carrier.

Don't blame the BSA. Blame all the bottom feeding moms, dads and attorneys who would just love to sue should little Johnny get hurt.
 
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