EAA Caved to FAA on AirVenture charges

gprellwitz

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Grant Prellwitz
According to the Northwestern, the EAA has caved to the FAA and reached a 9-year agreement in which they will continue to pay on the order of $450,000/year for FAA controllers at AirVenture. They will also dismiss the lawsuit pending against the FAA. Seems like a really bad prescedent to me! :mad:
 
According to the Northwestern, the EAA has caved to the FAA and reached a 9-year agreement in which they will continue to pay on the order of $450,000/year for FAA controllers at AirVenture. They will also dismiss the lawsuit pending against the FAA. Seems like a really bad prescedent to me! :mad:

Agreed......

I would have told the FAA to stuff it and brought in SERCO....
 
Well EAA = AOPA now. Too bad, they used to be a nice org. Sigh, one more group that I can drop my funding from. Buh-bye.
 
The fox just got into the hen house. No stopping then now.
 
According to the Northwestern, the EAA has caved to the FAA and reached a 9-year agreement in which they will continue to pay on the order of $450,000/year for FAA controllers at AirVenture. They will also dismiss the lawsuit pending against the FAA. Seems like a really bad prescedent to me! :mad:

In exchange for WHAT? Usually in negotiations you get something in return.
 
In exchange for WHAT? Usually in negotiations you get something in return.
Not when you negotiate with the mob. On the bright side EAA's windows won't be smashed in for awhile.
 
Probably went something like, "we know you need ATC services during your show or you can't have it. The price will $450,00 or no ATC services"
 

Ah, yup.

I can almost see agreeing with the $450k/yr, if the alternative is to lose AirVenture. Kind of like the mob. What I don't understand is why they dropped the lawsuit. And why the ball-less wonder Rep. Tom Petri said it was a good thing.

I'm sure they are going to suspend the Federal tax on avgas for the duration of the show. Why, it wouldn't be fair to double-dip, right? :rolleyes2
 
Ah, yup.

I can almost see agreeing with the $450k/yr, if the alternative is to lose AirVenture. Kind of like the mob. What I don't understand is why they dropped the lawsuit. And why the ball-less wonder Rep. Tom Petri said it was a good thing.

I'm sure they are going to suspend the Federal tax on avgas for the duration of the show. Why, it wouldn't be fair to double-dip, right? :rolleyes2


They are already double dipping.... The tower is in operation throughout the entire year at OSH using aviation federal funds.... The EAA should just tell them " it might get a bit busy during the last week of July";)..:D
 
There ARE a lot of pink shirts driving around on golf carts and gators during the show. I think they can trim the staff.

Brings the cost back down to a more reasonable $449,000.
 
There ARE a lot of pink shirts driving around on golf carts and gators during the show. I think they can trim the staff.

Brings the cost back down to a more reasonable $449,000.

:lol:......................:rofl:..........

Do the math.... That works out to 70 thousand a day for controllers... :mad2::mad2:.................:mad:
 
Airventure is just one more thing I will learn to do without. If they can't manage my contributions better, they don't deserve them, including my dues, and annual fees for Airventure.
 
“The agreement is consistent with FAA policy that requires operators to reimburse the FAA for some of the costs incurred in sending controllers, technicians and equipment in support of special events that draw a significant increase in air traffic, such as air shows, and sporting events,” the agency said.

What other events?
 
“The agreement is consistent with FAA policy that requires operators to reimburse the FAA for some of the costs incurred in sending controllers, technicians and equipment in support of special events that draw a significant increase in air traffic, such as air shows, and sporting events,” the agency said.

What other events?

Great question. Other than Sun n Fun, which I heard draws a big fly-in crowd, I've got nothing.
 
Maybe the EAA can get Gov. Walker there in Wisconsin to help them out.
 
That is about what 30 vendors pay for their booths. I dropped AOPA and EAA a while back and have not missed them a bit. 2012 Osh was my family's first and last.
 
Works out to what...a whole dollar per visitor???

What's the big deal??
 
Principles. Some have them, some don't.
 
What other events?

NASCAR and PGA, to name two, have been paying for their additional ATC services for years.

The whole idea of using "reimbursable agreements" to cover expenses for additional ATC services started about fifteen years ago, because of the lengthy IFR delays at some of the podunk airports that serve NASCAR racetrack locations. NASCAR complained to the FAA, and the FAA started providing additional services during race weekends to minimize the IFR delays.

After a couple of years, the FAA said, "We can't afford to do this anymore." NASCAR replied, "We'll cover it, how much does it cost and where do we send the check?"

A cash cow was born, and the FAA has been trying to increase the size of the herd ever since.
 
Great question. Other than Sun n Fun, which I heard draws a big fly-in crowd, I've got nothing.


Hmmm..

Let's take Atlanta / Hartsfield.... It has almost the same volume as Airventure.... 365 days a year....:idea:..

Does the FAA bill Atlanta 70,000 X 365 days = $$$ 25,550,000.00 $$$ every year for their services ? :dunno:
 
NASCAR and PGA, to name two, have been paying for their additional ATC services for years.

The whole idea of using "reimbursable agreements" to cover expenses for additional ATC services started about fifteen years ago, because of the lengthy IFR delays at some of the podunk airports that serve NASCAR racetrack locations. NASCAR complained to the FAA, and the FAA started providing additional services during race weekends to minimize the IFR delays.

After a couple of years, the FAA said, "We can't afford to do this anymore." NASCAR replied, "We'll cover it, how much does it cost and where do we send the check?"

A cash cow was born, and the FAA has been trying to increase the size of the herd ever since.

NASCAR and the PGA? Sounds like more of a cash cow than a real need. So how can more controllers allow you to get more IFR traffic into a field? Do the spacing rules get suspended for big events? That would be nice to know if I'm taking my Falcon jet into HQU for the Masters this week.
 
This is just the beginning. Next up the state and local police will require payements for local sporting events, concerts and other, or they will add another "cigarette tax (financing)" to industries like restaurants and whatnot to pay for it.
 
Well, as long we we keep electing people who cut taxes every chance they get, but still demand the same level of services... what's a bookkeeper to do?
Thirty years of "it's your money" has made 1% wealthy and the rest of us in the lurch. I don't agree with the FAA stance at all, but I can see where the rub is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM
 
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Public safety,is already charging for added services at sporting events. The only one who doesn't pay for services to the municipality is POTUS.
 
This is just the beginning. Next up the state and local police will require payements for local sporting events, concerts and other, or they will add another "cigarette tax (financing)" to industries like restaurants and whatnot to pay for it.


That's already happened. Our PTA has to pay for the cop directing traffic in front of the school.
 
Probably pressured with getting something done in time for the 2014 show. I'm certain it takes quite a bit of lead time. Pity, though. Double dipping and a user fee to boot, and a tax with no Congressional authorization at all. Wisconsin's Senators and the Representative from Oshkosh should be royally steamed at this. A flagrant violation of the separation of powers. Congress and Congress alone authorizes new taxes.
 
This is just the beginning. Next up the state and local police will require payements for local sporting events, concerts and other, or they will add another "cigarette tax (financing)" to industries like restaurants and whatnot to pay for it.


Pretty common where we are. I volunteer at a pretty large rodeo, and we pay for the police inside the event "keeping the peace" (and we have volunteer "security") and we pay for police to direct traffic at the end of the performance each night to get 7000 people out of parking and onto the roads.
 
I thought the controllers were all Volunteers?

From the Airventure web page
"Controllers are normally limited to volunteering for a total of seven years at the EAA convention, to allow others a chance to volunteer for this temporary duty assignment."

http://www.airventure.org/atc/volunteers.html

Trying to understand what the FAA is picking up the tab for, equipment, travel , or lodging?

I am only asking cause I dont know (not sarcasm) :dunno:
 
Union volunteers. They aren't allowed to work for free, they do volunteer to go to Oshkosh and do the job, but get paid. And there is no shortage of willing 'volunteers.'
I thought the controllers were all Volunteers?

From the Airventure web page
"Controllers are normally limited to volunteering for a total of seven years at the EAA convention, to allow others a chance to volunteer for this temporary duty assignment."

http://www.airventure.org/atc/volunteers.html

Trying to understand what the FAA is picking up the tab for, equipment, travel , or lodging?

I am only asking cause I dont know (not sarcasm) :dunno:
 
Union volunteers. They aren't allowed to work for free, they do volunteer to go to Oshkosh and do the job, but get paid. And there is no shortage of willing 'volunteers.'

That makes sense, but creates an easy misinterpretation of the term "volunteer" :rolleyes:
 
NASCAR and the PGA? Sounds like more of a cash cow than a real need. So how can more controllers allow you to get more IFR traffic into a field? Do the spacing rules get suspended for big events? That would be nice to know if I'm taking my Falcon jet into HQU for the Masters this week.

Consider Lewis University Airport (LOT), near the Chicagoland Speedway: normally, it's non-towered, so IFR traffic is one at a time. Weather doesn't matter-- if there's an IFR airplane on approach, IFR departures and arrivals are both stopped until he cancels, which sometimes doesn't occur until the arriving airplane lands and the pilot calls on the telephone to cancel. Same principle applies to departures-- once an IFR departure is released, any arrivals are put in the hold, and successive departures are held until the first departure is identified and out of the way. It can be a VERY slow process.

Race weekend, they bring in a temporary tower (http://www.flylot.com/nascar.htm). IFR arrivals no longer have to cancel, it's automatic with the tower, and controllers can make a judgement that landing is assured, allowing the next arrival to start inbound much sooner. Departures don't need to be held for the arrival, the tower can release them using non-radar separation rules or visual separation.

They can actually run departures one-after-another, by fanning them out in different directions. An entire ATC crew on the ground is dedicated to getting departures to the runway in an order that will work for that. One departure goes south, the next goes north, the next goes west, then another southbound, etc.

IFR capacity increases A LOT-- and NASCAR is happy to pay for that. It's important to note, though, that without the additional ATC resources, the airport could operate as normal and safety would likely not be impacted-- the airport would be busier, but the increase in VFR traffic isn't anywhere comparable to a fly-in, certainly not enough to justify Oshkosh-type procedures. There would just be inconvenience for the IFR's, due to the delays.

That's not the case with fly-ins, where sheer volume drives the equation. VFR traffic can't be flow controlled like IFR traffic can, so it's an issue of safety, not convenience. Since safety is the FAA's primary mission, they should provide the resources necessary to ensure it, whenever and wherever it's needed, regardless of what forces might be driving it.

We let them get away with this, what's next. Maybe a great new restaurant opens on an airport, traffic increases on weekends as pilots flock in for the $100 hamburger, the FAA declares additional ATC resources are required to maintain safety margins-- and we all find a 10% surcharge on our restaurant check because the FAA has started billing the restaurant, since they're the "event" causing the traffic...

'Tis a slippery slope we've started on....
 
This is just the beginning. Next up the state and local police will require payements for local sporting events, concerts and other, or they will add another "cigarette tax (financing)" to industries like restaurants and whatnot to pay for it.

We called 911 for a guy at work a few years ago. He was having chest pains. The ambulance took him to the hospital 4 miles away. Sent him a bill for $3500. :yikes:

Aren't they already paid for with tax dollars??
 
Principles. Some have them, some don't.

Some people claim they want small govt, low taxes, and a a balanced budget until the things they want are cut. That is hypocrisey, not principals. Entertainment subsidies for special interests are an easy line item to cut.
 
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Airventure is just one more thing I will learn to do without. If they can't manage my contributions better, they don't deserve them, including my dues, and annual fees for Airventure.

What makes you think your contributions go toward this? Air venture is a huge money maker. You'll make a small contribution from your fee, but no more than a landing or parking fee anywhere else.
 
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We called 911 for a guy at work a few years ago. He was having chest pains. The ambulance took him to the hospital 4 miles away. Sent him a bill for $3500. :yikes:

Aren't they already paid for with tax dollars??

Many ambulance services are private companies that are dispatched via 911 operators.
 
We called 911 for a guy at work a few years ago. He was having chest pains. The ambulance took him to the hospital 4 miles away. Sent him a bill for $3500. :yikes:

Aren't they already paid for with tax dollars??

The 911 dispatch costs are covered by a tax on your phone bill, this does not cover the ambulance dispatched though which is more likely going to be a for profit third party provider. I'm sure he got a hospital bill on top of it. That's the thing about medicine in America, it is only covered by tax payers for a few, not universally. If you wanted real socialized medicine, you would need to up the Capital Gains tax to 35%.
 
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