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Bob Noel
Who do you think has that attitude?
EAA bans guns at OSH
- Thread starter Tom-D
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Who do you think has that attitude?
I am not going to go through 476 posts to document the examples.
Ghery
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Ghery Pettit
My goal in carrying concealed. Only I know that I'm carrying. Or not. That's the whole point of carrying concealed.
And I've had a family member murdered with a firearm. Didn't change my attitude on firearms, only reinforced my belief that laws restricting ownership are useless as only the law abiding follow them. Convicted felon in possession of a silencer equipped handgun (not registered). Those laws didn't stop him from commiting another felony - murder.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
So you see me out armed and make such an assumption? How about my bride to be when she's off duty?
Angie's job makes not only her a target but me as well. You may go ahead and assume I'm dangerous, I assume that of everyone. But crazy?
Really?
Propeller driven aircraft have propellers. Gliders don't have propellers. The risk of a prop-strike accident is an 'inherent danger' of the operation of propeller driven aircraft. The fact that proper briefing of passengers and line personnel can mitigate that risk does not mean it is not inherent to the operation of propeller aircraft.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
Guess we don't need to take any precautions when handling them then.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
Yes guns are dangerous, jeeze guys one gun nut to another let's just admit that they are.
No they aren't the only dangerous thing out there but they are on the list.
No they aren't the only dangerous thing out there but they are on the list.
I don't provoke them. I don't invite them into my home. My logic does not say they "must" be dangerous and crazy. It only says that the potential is there. The potential is there for everyone. Those who are armed with firearms are potentially more lethal than those who are not.
DaleB
Final Approach
Like a lot of things, guns are dangerous if proper precautions are not exercised. Training, proper handling, awareness and mitigation of risk. That sort of thing. Pilots of all people should understand that.
A car, airplane, gun or shovel can ALL get you and those around you into or out of serious trouble. None should ever be in the control of a crazy person, they could hurt themselves or others. But with proper training, the right attitude and attention to detail, a pilot/driver/gun owner/ditch digger can go his or her entire life without endangering him/herself or others.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
Absolutely. That's why we require a certain amount of training and testing to drive a car or fly an airplane. I am by no means anti-gun but I get tired of people saying there is no risk involved with them.
airguy
Cleared for Takeoff
I think I'm gonna knock off work a little early this afternoon and take my new shovel out to the shovel-range for some hole-digging practice. 
Anthony
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Anthony
I don't think people aren't saying there is "no risk". The problem is that emotions rule some people when it comes to guns, and irrational fear is projected onto an inanimate object. It is the person that misuses the gun, not the gun itself.
The destructive power of a gun must be respected, but the person behindit feared. Precautions must be taken with guns, similar to cars, planes, chain saws, etc. A chain saw can kill you but it won't jump off the floor by itself and get you. Neither will a gun shoot someone by itself.
Watch the "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" and report back. Did any of the chainsaws act on their own?
Everskyward
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Everskyward
True, but I also think that emotions rule, in some cases, when people are trying to defend guns.
airguy
Cleared for Takeoff
Just as when people are trying to attack them.
jtheune
Ejection Handle Pulled
Then perhaps might want to review your own statement
Please understand that if I see you armed, I must assume you are dangerous and crazy. Although I've seen armed people who are neither, those who are, have brought untold grief.
__________________
- Aunt Peggy
Shooting the approach to Instrument Rating
denverpilot
Tied Down
I respectfully disagree. Life is risk. Even with proper training, I'm putting myself and others at risk. Every day.
The training in aviation, guns, operating kitchen utensils, proper software coding, whatever... attempts to lower the risk but does not eliminate it.
Additionally I might choose risks others would not. I started and drove my evil gas-guzzling truck this morning and put the entire planet at risk. Or so some believe.
Bummer for the person who places a high personal priority on that risk.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
Right, some objects are more dangerous than others with cars, airplanes and guns near the top followed by chainsaws, then shovels, then Nerf balls.
Anthony
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roncachamp
Final Approach
That does sound strange. I'm confident your brother was able to purchase a shovel that day.
Probably not since he didn't have enough money to buy both.
Anthony
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Anthony
I am not going to get into personal tragedy but I will tell you this. I know for a fact that when someone wants to end their life they will do it with any means available. Whether it be drugs, carbon monoxide, a bridge, a train, or a firearm.
I am sorry for anyone's loss with a firearm or any means of suicide. It is truly tragic and sad. I feel for people that tormented as to not have any hope, but I feel more for their freinds and family they selfishly leave with the remorse.
I am sorry for anyone's loss with a firearm or any means of suicide. It is truly tragic and sad. I feel for people that tormented as to not have any hope, but I feel more for their freinds and family they selfishly leave with the remorse.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Given that shovels cost less than shotguns he definitely could have.
airguy
Cleared for Takeoff
Peggy, I don't mean to sound flippant about your loss - but let's be serious here. Even if he was dead broke and committed to ending it all, stepping in front of a train or off a tall bridge is free. The gun/shovel was simply a means to an end, one of many available to a person that has already reached that point, and nothing more than a tool to finish the job.
Quit blaming the tool.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
That's like blaming the spoon for Rosy O'donnell being fat.
airbornejohnny
Line Up and Wait
Well, I have a picture I cannot seem to post in a message, but in it theres myself and two other members of my squad facing the camera and the rest of my platoon in the background and we are all quite heavily armed. Just a guess, but I'd say all of us (myself for sure) would take offense at that statement...at least the crazy part.
We train to an extremely high standard, with fully automatic weapons and grenade launchers and rockets. We are all disciplined shooters, and certainly not crazy.
Then I wish he had chosen to purchase a shovel.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
He also could have bought Tylenol, razor blades, rope, or a length of hose to connect to the tail pipe of a car.
Point is just because a gun was his chosen meathod doesn't mean that w/o the gun the end results would have changed.
Look I'm sorry you've had to deal with this with someone close to you. So have I, I don't blame the pills in my case.
Point is just because a gun was his chosen meathod doesn't mean that w/o the gun the end results would have changed.
Look I'm sorry you've had to deal with this with someone close to you. So have I, I don't blame the pills in my case.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
This is simply not true, and surprisingly ignorant given the source. Most suicides are impulsive and serve more as a means of gaining attention as anything else. Firearms present a facile and attractive way to do it. Most unsuccessful suicides do not make another try.
It isn't easy to kill yourself with pills unless you have special knowledge of their metabolism. Rope is painful, and not everyone knows where to get a rubber hose sufficiently large to fit a tailpipe. Again, guns are very attractive. Yes, some will kill themselves even if a gun isn't available, but lots more won't.
However, this is all utterly germane. Guns are and will remain legal in this country no matter what fears their advocates manage to monger. Yes, some people will end their own lives with them. It is a price we as a society pay for this freedom, just as we pay in dead airmen for the freedom to fly.
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Bob Noel
Don't fall into a trap of complacency. There are in fact plenty of people out there that actively work to make gun ownership illegal. I'm not saying that the sky is falling, but it would be quite pollyannaish to think nothing is needed to protect our rights.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
While I will not disagree, gun owners are a very large, vocal, and engaged minority. Moreover, most gun crime is against gun owners and their associates. While these two facts remain constant, I am in no fear of the future of firearm ownership in this country, unlike those who seek to spread it, often for their own political or financial benefit.
gkainz
Final Approach
http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx
47% according to the latest Gallup poll. While technically a "minority" as you point out, not quite the same as that word would lead one to believe.
edit: gallop poll selected as perhaps non-biased. Numbers from NRA would indicate higher, while numbers from Gun Violence in America show lower. Both would be considered somewhat biased.
Can you site a source for your second "fact"? I have a hard time swallowing that without reviewing the basis.
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dell30rb
Final Approach
'most gun crime is against gun owners' - where did this 'fact' come from? are you including people who own guns illegally, because there are a LOT of them, and I would wager that their chances of getting shot are MUCH higher than the rest of the public.
I live in a low crime area and I have a few guns locked up in my closet. I don't see how having guns in the closet puts me at greater risk of being shot by a criminal
steingar
Taxi to Parking
My second "fact" was gleaned from the CDC and their analysis of firearm deaths. I can't find documentation just now, although a small minority of deaths are suicides, which do fall under my rubric. If someone has a source indicating I'm wrong, I will happily accede my mistake.
gkainz
Final Approach
fair enough. Opinions are easily and normally clouded by one's experiences. For example, I am familiar with 4 successful suicides and 1 unsuccessful suicide attempt in my social circle over the past 20 years. None of those were by firearm. So, I was " ---> this close <----" to arguing your point, but that would have been based only on "my experience".
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Bob Noel
What we don't know is what gun crime is against a legal gunowner by someone else's legal gun.
Do you acknowledge that people are working to maintain our rights?
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Bob Noel
2009 CDC data,
36,909 Intentional self-harm (suicide), of those, 18,735 by firearm. So approximately half of the people committing suicide managed to find some means other than firearm.
11,493 deaths by firearm - assault homicide
31,347 total deaths by firearm.
Would I be incorrect in concluding that avoiding suicide and avoiding being assaulted would significantly limit the risk of being killed by a firearm?
36,909 Intentional self-harm (suicide), of those, 18,735 by firearm. So approximately half of the people committing suicide managed to find some means other than firearm.
11,493 deaths by firearm - assault homicide
31,347 total deaths by firearm.
Would I be incorrect in concluding that avoiding suicide and avoiding being assaulted would significantly limit the risk of being killed by a firearm?
Skylane81E
Final Approach
Looks like if you avoid suicide you have dodged half the danger, don't get murdered by one too and you are now looking at what, 1300 odd slots a year left for accidental death? Not too bad really when compared to other activities.
Might also be interesting to see how many of the homicides were "innocent" people and not crooks themselves.
Might also be interesting to see how many of the homicides were "innocent" people and not crooks themselves.
airbornejohnny
Line Up and Wait
I know of three attempted suicides, one adult drove his car over the quarry and survived because he forgot to take off his seatbelt. The other was a child who hanged himself in his closet. We performed CPR for about 45 minutes, unsuccessfully. The third used a .30 cal rifle, and survived.
Two of the three did not try using guns, and the one who did survived it. They all found their available means to an end. To brush aside such an attempt as a "means of gaining attention" seem a bit wrong, IMO. In failure they certainly get attention, and hopefully through treatment will prevail in life, but the attempt is a smack-upside-the-head to those around the person followed with the question, "Why didn't I/we see this coming?"
Guns aren't at fault, the people who mistreat them are.
Just my opinion.
