E/AB and AD's

[Tom-D]

A friend just called and asked if he could sign off his own ADs he has a repairman certificate for his Glassair with a 0-360/180 horse in it. He wacked the prop today on a muddy grass runway on Stewart Is.

He wants to change the prop blades, ( I have no idea which prop he has) and fly it out. then do the AD in his hangar.

Can he sign off his ADs? I have no idea.

For a E/AB does he need a ferry permit? If he does, can he sign that too?

OBTW Stewart Is. is as remote as it gets, no ferry service, your boat, your aircraft, is all there is.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Tom....my understanding of the EA\B Repairman Cert is that it comes with the same privileges as an A&P.....for that airframe.

So, I'd imagine he'd be able to do all that you ask.

But....ADs do not apply to experimental aircraft, unless it's explicitly called out in the applicability section of the AD....I think. I doubt it applies.

What AD are we talking about?

 

[Geico266]

Why would he need a ferry permit?

SB's (service bulletins) apply to experimentals.

He might even have to put it back into Phase #1 testing with a new prop. The local FSDO would be able to tell you.

 

[jesse]

Tom....my understanding of the EA\B Repairman Cert is that it comes with the same privileges as an A&P.....for that airframe.

So, I'd imagine he'd be able to do all that you ask.

Correct. He can do the AD.

But....ADs do not apply to experimental aircraft, unless it's explicitly called out in the applicability section of the AD....I think. I doubt it applies.

What AD are we talking about?

Correct, AC 39-7D states:

b. Non-TC’d Aircraft and Products Installed Thereon. Non-TC’d aircraft
(e.g., amateur-built aircraft, experimental exhibition) are aircraft for which the FAA has not
issued a TC under part 21. The AD applicability statement will identify if the AD applies to
non-TC’d aircraft or engines, propellers, and appliances installed thereon. The following are
examples of applicability statements for ADs related to non-TC’d aircraft:
(1) “This AD applies to Honeywell International Inc. Auxiliary Power Unit (APU)
models GTCP36-150(R) and GTCP36-150(RR). These APUs are installed on, but not limited to,
Fokker Services B.V. Model F.28 Mark 0100 and F.28 Mark 0070 airplanes, and Mustang
Aeronautics, Inc. Model Mustang II experimental airplanes. This AD applies to any aircraft with
the listed APU models installed.” This statement makes the AD applicable to the listed auxiliary
power unit (APU) models installed on TC’d aircraft, as well as non-TC’d aircraft.
(2) “This AD applies to Lycoming Engines Models AEIO-360-A1A and IO-360-A1A.
This AD applies to any aircraft with the listed engine models installed.” This statement makes
the AD applicable to the listed engine models installed on TC’d and non-TC’d aircraft.

We're talking about this AD:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...e5f8683a0a4686256e9b004bc295/$FILE/041014.pdf

Which states:

This AD applies to Lycoming Engines (formerly Textron Lycoming), direct-drive
reciprocating engines (except O-145, O-320H, O-360E, LO-360E, LTO-360E, TO-360-E, O-435, and
TIO-541 series engines).

So that makes things not so clear..Could probably interpret it either way, unless he has a O-360E....

Could someone educate me as to why the certain Lycoming engines are excluded?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Ok.....here ya go. AC 39-7d

9. APPLICABILITY OF ADs. Each AD contains an applicability statement specifying the product (aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance) to which it applies. Unless stated otherwise (see subparagraph 9b of this AC), ADs only apply to type-certificated (TC) aircraft, including ADs issued for an engine, propeller, and appliance.

It doesn't apply.....and is voluntary. An EA/B aircraft does not have a TC.

 

[Geico266]

Ok.....here ya go. AC 39-7d

It doesn't apply.....and is voluntary. An EA/B aircraft does not have a TC.

Correct.

 

[jesse]

Ok.....here ya go. AC 39-7d

It doesn't apply.....and is voluntary. An EA/B aircraft does not have a TC.

Keep reading the AC. They can apply depending on wording. See my above post.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

thank you....

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Keep reading the AC. They can apply depending on wording. See my above post.

They can....but it needs to be explicit in the applicability section.....so, I'm betting it doesn't apply in this case. No TC is involved.

 

[jesse]

They can....but it needs to be explicit in the applicability section.....so, I'm betting it doesn't apply in this case. No TC is involved.

I suspect you'd get a different answer depending on which airworthiness guy you asked. "to Lycoming engines". It does not specify a specific type. Really a poorly worded mess but most all this stuff is. Sigh.

In this case, if he wants to swap the prop blades, I suspect the current ones are pretty messed up. If that is the case, he really should do what is in the AD regardless of if it applies or not because it exists for a real safety reason and his ass is on the line.

Not all AD(s) are BS. If the prop is bad enough to need replacing then he should be tearing things down. Sounds like he wants to do that anyhow -- so the real question being asked is: "Can this guy do the AD himself" and the answer from what I understand is "yes".

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Yup.....the second statement needs to be in the applicability sections for it to apply to a non-TC'd aircraft.

For TC'd

“This AD applies to Lycoming Engines Models AEIO-360-A1A and IO-360-A1A.”

For non-TC'd

“This AD applies to Lycoming Engines Models AEIO-360-A1A and IO-360-A1A.This AD applies to any aircraft with the listed engine models installed.”

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I suspect you'd get a different answer depending on which airworthiness guy you asked. "to Lycoming engines". It does not specify a specific type. Really a poorly worded mess but most all this stuff is. Sigh.

In this case, if he wants to swap the prop blades, I suspect the current ones are pretty messed up. If that is the case, he really should do what is in the AD regardless of if it applies or not because it exists for a real safety reason and his ass is on the line.

Not all AD(s) are BS. If the prop is bad enough to need replacing then he should be tearing things down.

Have him call management in AFS-300....it shouldn't be that difficult.

the magic words....."to any aircraft" need to be there for it to apply to an EA/B.

But, ya, the AD is a prudent thing for him to perform.....

 

[jesse]

Have him call management in AIR-100....it shouldn't be that difficult.

the magic words....."to anyl aircraft" need to be there for it to apply to an EA/B.

I personally agree that the AD should not apply because of the way it was worded. That said I've seen many cases where the FAA firmly disagrees with my interpretation of their poorly written regulations and guidance so I wouldn't be surprised if it went either way.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

very few ADs....if any, apply to EA/B aircraft.

I'm not seeing the magic words in the applicability statement.....

(c) This AD applies to Lycoming Engines (formerly Textron Lycoming), direct-drive reciprocating engines (except O-145, O-320H, O-360E, LO-360E, LTO-360E, TO-360-E, O-435, and TIO-541 series engines).

This only applies to TC'd aircraft.....

 

[Tom-D]

His letter of limitations says he is required to comply with FAR 43 for annual, and airworthiness.

I didn't ask if it says anything about FAR 39.

 

[Tom-D]

very few ADs....if any, apply to EA/B aircraft.

I'm not seeing the magic words in the applicability statement.....



This only applies to TC'd aircraft.....

His engine has a type certificate ?

 

[Tom-D]

I've noticed that this is an engine AD, there is no mention of aircraft or the certification of the aircraft.

In the corrections it says.

Also, on page 29211, in the third column, paragraph (e), which reads ''Compliance with this AD is required as indicated before further flight if the engine has experienced a propeller strike as defined in paragraphs (i) and (j) of this AD, unless already done.'' is corrected to read ''Compliance with this AD is required as indicated before further flight if the engine experiences a propeller strike after the effective date of this AD, as defined in paragraphs (i) and (j) of this AD.

 

[Tom-D]

far 39.1 Purpose of this regulation.
The regulations in this part provide a legal framework for FAA's system of Airworthiness Directives.

39.3 Definition of airworthiness directives.
FAA's airworthiness directives are legally enforceable rules that apply to the following products: aircraft, aircraft engines, propellers, and appliances.

39.5 When does FAA issue airworthiness directives?
FAA issues an airworthiness directive addressing a product when we find that:

(a) An unsafe condition exists in the product; and

(b) The condition is likely to exist or develop in other products of the same type design.

39.7 What is the legal effect of failing to comply with an airworthiness directive?
Anyone who operates a product that does not meet the requirements of an applicable airworthiness directive is in violation of this section.

39.9 What if I operate an aircraft or use a product that does not meet the requirements of an airworthiness directive?
If the requirements of an airworthiness directive have not been met, you violate §39.7 each time you operate the aircraft or use the product.

Do you see any thing there that would exclude this engine because it was in a E/AB aircraft?

 

[Ted]

Could someone educate me as to why the certain Lycoming engines are excluded?

ADs usually come about because a problem occurred. While most Lycomings are parts bin engineered, a few have significant design differences, so chances are the AD was deemed not applicable to those engines because of the design differences.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

His engine has a type certificate ?

yes, but, it's installed in a non-TC'd airframe.....

IMHO....it doesn't apply....but, would be well suited to perform anyways.


btw Tom....that same guy who could help you with that other issue....can help you with this one too.

 

[Geico266]

His engine has a type certificate ?

Not when it is installed in an EAB. You can read all the regs you want about certificated engines, they don't apply to ANY engine installed in any experimental aircraft. This has been hashed to death for years in the experimental world. Once it is installed into an experimental aircraft no ADs apply, or rather mandatory. The owner gets to decide what AD's he wants to comply with.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Once it is installed into an experimental aircraft no ADs apply. Period.

No, not always....but, mostly.


see my comments from the AC above.....

 

[Geico266]

No, not always....but, mostly.

I never say never, but I can't remember any that do. Certainly, the prop strike one doesn't. I'll stick with never.

Remember, ADs = Aircraft Directives

There are no Aircraft Directives that apply to experimentals, only Service Bulletins (SB's)

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I never say never, but I can't remember any that do. Certainly, the prop strike one doesn't. I'll stick with never.

A couple of years ago I took a part 21 Airworthiness class....and I distinctly remember the instructor saying that she didn't think there were any ADs that applied to EA/B aircraft....but, that one day there could be one....just not yet. That AC helps clarify the wording of when it could apply.

AD = Airworthiness Directives and they are regulated under part 39.....

 

[Geico266]

A couple of years ago I took a part 21 Airworthiness class....and I distinctly remember the instructor saying that she didn't think there were any ADs that applied to EA/B aircraft....but, that one day there could be one....just not yet. That AC helps clarify the wording of when it could apply.

AD = Airworthiness Directives.....

She is correct, however, there will most likely never be ADs that cover EAB's since each airplane is different with different builders, engines, avionics, plans built, kit built, etc. Too many variables.

 

[Tom-D]

Not when it is installed in an EAB. You can read all the regs you want about certificated engines, they don't apply to ANY engine installed in any experimental aircraft.

Where would I find that in FAA jargon?
Is there an AC ? or ?

 

[wanttaja]

I had to perform a compliance inspection on my magnetos, based on the following AD:

"69-09-01 EISEMANN: Amdt. 39-784. Applies to all type AM-4, AM-6, LA-4, and LA-6 Eisemann magnetos installed on, but not necessarily limited to:

"Continental A-50 Series
"Continental A-65 Series
...
"Continental C-85 Series"

The "not necessarily limited to" was the killer in my case.

Wasn't happy partially disassembling my magnetos 40+ years after the AD, to verify that didn't have the bad coils.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Tom-D]

I had to perform a compliance inspection on my magnetos, based on the following AD:

"69-09-01 EISEMANN: Amdt. 39-784. Applies to all type AM-4, AM-6, LA-4, and LA-6 Eisemann magnetos installed on, but not necessarily limited to:

"Continental A-50 Series
"Continental A-65 Series
...
"Continental C-85 Series"

The "not necessarily limited to" was the killer in my case.

Wasn't happy partially disassembling my magnetos 40+ years after the AD, to verify that didn't have the bad coils.

Ron Wanttaja

A bit late but now you know they are a different color that can be seen thru the timing inspection hole.

 

[Tom-D]

The "not necessarily limited to" was the killer in my case.
Ron Wanttaja

This is what gets so confusing.

 

[wanttaja]

A bit late but now you know they are a different color that can be seen thru the timing inspection hole.

Ha! Going to have to take a close look. Thanks...

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Henning]

A friend just called and asked if he could sign off his own ADs he has a repairman certificate for his Glassair with a 0-360/180 horse in it. He wacked the prop today on a muddy grass runway on Stewart Is.

He wants to change the prop blades, ( I have no idea which prop he has) and fly it out. then do the AD in his hangar.

Can he sign off his ADs? I have no idea.

For a E/AB does he need a ferry permit? If he does, can he sign that too?

OBTW Stewart Is. is as remote as it gets, no ferry service, your boat, your aircraft, is all there is.

Yep, if he holds the repaiman's cert for that plane, he can provide any required maintenance signature, it's all his. The Prop Strike AD is voluntary for him, so he needs no ferry permit.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

A repairman's certificate lets you perform the condition inspection and sign off that the aircraft has been inspected in accordance with appendix D and has been found to be airworthy (edit ) in a condition safe for operation.

I'm not aware of any other privilege that is granted with the certificate - am I missing something?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

the majority of part 43 does not apply towards EA/B.

§43.1 Applicability.(b) This part does not apply to—

(1) Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness certificate for that aircraft; or

(2) Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate under the provisions of §21.191 (i)(3) of this chapter, and the aircraft was previously issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category under the provisions of §21.190 of this chapter.

repairman's cert....AC 65-23a

5. PRIVILEGES AND LIMITATIONS. Holders of repairman certificates (experimental aircraft builder) may perform “condition inspections” on specific aircraft built by the certificate holder. Consistent with § 65.104(b), the aircraft will be identified by make, model, and serial number as shown on the repairman certificate. During the aircraft certification procedure the FAA issues operating limitations, as necessary per § 91.319, to ensure an adequate level of safety. These limitations may require that the subject aircraft be inspected annually by a repairman (experimental aircraft builder), the holder of an FAA mechanic certificate with appropriate ratings (airframe and powerplant), or an appropriately rated FAA repair station. Condition inspections will be performed in accordance with the scope and detail of part 43, appendix D. Operating limitations will also require that an appropriate entry be made in the aircraft maintenance records to show performance of this inspection.
NOTE: It should be noted that the privileges and limitations of § 65.104 are not associated with the privileges and limitations of § 65.103, titled “Repairman Certificate: Privileges and Limitations.”

 

[Geico266]

Where would I find that in FAA jargon?
Is there an AC ? or ?

See above post.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

See above post.

hello.....tap....tap......is this thingy on?

 

[Tom-D]

the majority of part 43 does not apply towards EA/B.

I understand that FAR 43-D is only used as a guide for the conditional inspection.

But it is FAR 39, that is in question. And there is no such statement that says it isn't applicable to E/AB.

It is my understanding that if the engine still has the data tag on it, it is still a certified engine unmodified.
if the engine data tag is replaced with a Experimental tag it will no longer be a certified engine and there will never be an AD issued listing it.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I understand that FAR 43-D is only used as a guide for the conditional inspection.

But it is FAR 39, that is in question. And there is no such statement that says it isn't applicable to E/AB.

It is my understanding that if the engine still has the data tag on it, it is still a certified engine unmodified.
if the engine data tag is replaced with a Experimental tag it will no longer be a certified engine and there will never be an AD issued listing it.

One has the option of maintaining it to certified standards while being "installed" in a EA/B aircraft. If that's the case, an A&P needs to do the annuals and sign-offs.

Else, it is "installed" on a non-TC'd aircraft and gets maintained to EA/B standards.

The AC I listed above....and referenced a dozen times is used as guidance and should be fine. All else use the AC with your FSDO.

 

[Tom-D]

OK finally found it ::

9. APPLICABILITY OF ADs. Each AD contains an applicability statement specifying the product (aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance) to which it applies. Unless stated otherwise (see subparagraph 9b of this AC), ADs only apply to type-certificated (TC) aircraft, including ADs issued for an engine, propeller, and appliance.

 

[jesse]

OK finally found it ::

9. APPLICABILITY OF ADs. Each AD contains an applicability statement specifying the product (aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance) to which it applies. Unless stated otherwise (see subparagraph 9b of this AC), ADs only apply to type-certificated (TC) aircraft, including ADs issued for an engine, propeller, and appliance.

Could have saved yourself some time and read my post #4 which had that

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

OK finally found it ::

9. APPLICABILITY OF ADs. Each AD contains an applicability statement specifying the product (aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance) to which it applies. Unless stated otherwise (see subparagraph 9b of this AC), ADs only apply to type-certificated (TC) aircraft, including ADs issued for an engine, propeller, and appliance.

Yes.....and for those following along at home....that was explained in post #2.