Duplicative Ratings

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
As I understand, once a pilot achieves a Commercial Rating, his Private rating is surrendered and once acheiving an ATP, his Commercial is surrendered.

I saw an article where a guy's listed ratings were ATP, CFII, MEI

Q1: Is the CFII and MEI duplicicative? Wouldn't it be covered (as well as CFI) by stating ATP?

Q2: Is it possible to have a CFII and not a CFI?

Q3: Can all CFII's give instrument ground instruction? Can all CFI's give VFR ground instruction?
 
cfi, mei, and cfii are for practical purposes different certificates with different privileges. ATP confers very limited instructional privileges.

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Jaybird180 said:
As I understand, once a pilot achieves a Commercial Rating, his Private rating is surrendered and once acheiving an ATP, his Commercial is surrendered.

I saw an article where a guy's listed ratings were ATP, CFII, MEI

Q1: Is the CFII and MEI duplicicative? Wouldn't it be covered (as well as CFI) by stating ATP?

Q2: Is it possible to have a CFII and not a CFI?

Q3: Can all CFII's give instrument ground instruction? Can all CFI's give VFR ground instruction?
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1.) No the CFII can teach instrument students. MEI can teach multi engine students. You can have an MEI with out a CFII.

2.) No

3.) Yes/Yes
 
you can have a cfii and not be allowed to teach other than instrument students.

basically you get an airplane cfi with three different ratings.
airplane single engine.
airplane multiengine
instrument airplane.

you can have any one of the three and are limited to those privileges.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
Jaybird180 said:
As I understand, once a pilot achieves a Commercial Rating, his Private rating is surrendered and once acheiving an ATP, his Commercial is surrendered.
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Let's start with Certificates and Ratings 101.

The FAA issues both. Certificates are the name of the piece of paper (bow, plastic) and the name of the certificate held appears on the front of the piece of paper.

The airman certificates and Private, Commercial, ATP and CFI.

Ratings are a set of privileges and limitations associated with the certificate held. Ratings appear on the back of the piece of paper. Like ASEL, AMEL, Instrument Airplane.

So when someone gets a commercial certificate, it replaces his private certificate.

That picky? Maybe. But at least 80% of the confusion is this area are probaly associated without understanding the difference. Just watch how it deals with your other questions:

I saw an article where a guy's listed ratings were ATP, CFII, MEI
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No they werent. ATP and CFI are certificates. The extra I in CFII and the MEI are both ratings on CFI certificates.

Q1: Is the CFII and MEI duplicicative? Wouldn't it be covered (as well as CFI) by stating ATP?
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An ATP is a pilot certificate. The CFI is an instructor certificate. Conceptually as different from each other as a pilot certificate and a mechanic certificate.

Q2: Is it possible to have a CFII and not a CFI?
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The problem is that most people add to the certificate/rating confusion by using shorthand combinations. For example, a lot of people use the term "CFI" to refer to a CFI certificate with an Airplane Single Engine rating. Assuming that's how you are referring to those concepts in your question, yes, it is possible to have a CFI with an "Instrument Airplane" rating but without an "Airplane Single Engine" rating. It's pretty limited though. Without that "Airplane Single Engine" rating, a CFI-I is relegated to ground instruction and devices.

Q3: Can all CFII's give instrument ground instruction? Can all CFI's give VFR ground instruction?
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Yes, within the limitations of their CFI ratings.
 
I would point out that one of the issues with a CFI with only an Instrument-Airplane rating is that such an instructor cannot legally give flight training. If you dig in the rules, you'll find that in order to give training in an aircraft in flight, you must have the applicable aircraft rating on both your pilot and flight instructor certificates. The Instrument-Airplane rating is an instrument rating, not an aircraft rating, and so when placed on a Flight Instructor certificateconveys no priviliges by itself to give training in an aircraft in flight unless accompanied by the appropriate aircraft rating (e.g., Airplane Single Engine).

See 61.5 and 61.189 for details.


So, I hold two certificates:
  • ATP with Airplane Single Engine Land and Airplane Multiengine Land ratings
  • CFI with Airplane Single Engine, Airplane Multiengine, and Instrument-Airplane ratings.
No doubt some people would say I am a CFI, MEI, and CFII, but it's all really just that one Flight Instructor certificate with three ratings on it.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Q1: Is the CFII and MEI duplicicative? Wouldn't it be covered (as well as CFI) by stating ATP?
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Outside of in-company training in a Part 121/135 operation, ATP's have no instructor priviliges unless they also have a Flight Instructor certificate ("CFI") -- see 61.3(d)(3)(ii).

Q2: Is it possible to have a CFII and not a CFI?
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I think Mark covered this.

Q3: Can all CFII's give instrument ground instruction?
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As Mark said, yes -- a CFI-IA can give ground training for an Instrument rating or privilege. A CFI-IA can also give training in a flight simulation device (technically "ground trarining" by the definition in 61.1) for an instrument rating or privilege.
(7) Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

(9) Ground training means that training, other than flight training, received from an authorized instructor.
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Can all CFI's give VFR ground instruction?
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No. A CFI with only an Instrument rating cannot give ground training other than for an Instrument rating or privilege.
 
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I was once told that if one passes the written test for the Instrument rating, one is authorized to teach instrument ground school. I believe one has to take some sort of instructional course/test in addition.

If true does this show up on the certificate and if so, what would it say?

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
I was once told that if one passes the written test for the Instrument rating, one is authorized to teach instrument ground school. I believe one has to take some sort of instructional course/test in addition.
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I think you either heard or were told only part of the story.

To give instrument ground training without a CFI-I, you need a Ground Instructor certificate with Instrument rating. To get that, you must pass both the Fundamentals of Instructor (FOI) and Ground Instructor-Instrument writtens.

The GI-I written is essentially the same as both the Flight Instructor-Instrument and Instrument Rating-Airplane (pilot type) writtens, and studying for one will get you through them all. For that reason, we often recommend anyone taking the IR-A test with plans to get their CFI-I within 24 months to take all three back-to-back-to-back. As soon as they pass the FOI, they can take the GI-I and FOI test results to the FSDO with an 8710-1 and walk out with a GI-I ticket.

However, passing the IR-A written conveys no privileges of any kind other than filling one of the several squares necessary to be eligible to take the IR-A practical test. Ditto the GI-I written -- it carries no privileges until you also pass the FOI and get your GI-I certificate issued.
 
So what does one do to get a "regular" GI? I'm assuming FOI is the only requirement for a PPL holder?
 
Jaybird180 said:
So what does one do to get a "regular" GI? I'm assuming FOI is the only requirement for a PPL holder?
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The FOI is one step. The next is passing the Ground Instructor written test appropriate to the desired rating. The Basic test is esssentially the PP written, the Advanced test is essentially the CP written, and the Instrument test is essentially the IR-A written. Once you've passed both tests, you take the results and a filled-out 8710-1 to the FSDO, and they issue the GI certificate. If you took the FOI and GI-B tests, you get a GI ticket with a Basic rating, which allows you to provide:
(1) Ground training in the aeronautical knowledge areas required for the issuance of a sport pilot certificate, recreational pilot certificate, private pilot certificate, or associated ratings under this part;
(2) Ground training required for a sport pilot, recreational pilot, and private pilot flight review; and
(3) A recommendation for a knowledge test required for the issuance of a sport pilot certificate, recreational pilot certificate or private pilot certificate under this part.
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For Advanced and Instrument privileges, see 61.215.

There is no requirement or credit for holding a PP or any other pilot certificate, and you don't get credit for the Basic for holding a PP -- you still have to take the GI-B written. The good news is that once you get your GI issued, you're good for the FOI for CFI later -- you don't have to retake it at that point.
 
Ron Levy said:
I would point out that one of the issues with a CFI with only an Instrument-Airplane rating is that such an instructor cannot legally give flight training. If you dig in the rules, you'll find that in order to give training in an aircraft in flight, you must have the applicable aircraft rating on both your pilot and flight instructor certificates. The Instrument-Airplane rating is an instrument rating, not an aircraft rating, and so when placed on a Flight Instructor certificateconveys no priviliges by itself to give training in an aircraft in flight unless accompanied by the appropriate aircraft rating (e.g., Airplane Single Engine).
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The Chief Counsel's office very recently reaffirmed its position on this. Seems they got a request that asked, "did you really mean it when you said it 2 years ago?"

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/2012/Kortokrax.pdf
 
Ron Levy said:
I would point out that one of the issues with a CFI with only an Instrument-Airplane rating is that such an instructor cannot legally give flight training. If you dig in the rules, you'll find that in order to give training in an aircraft in flight, you must have the applicable aircraft rating on both your pilot and flight instructor certificates. The Instrument-Airplane rating is an instrument rating, not an aircraft rating, and so when placed on a Flight Instructor certificateconveys no priviliges by itself to give training in an aircraft in flight unless accompanied by the appropriate aircraft rating (e.g., Airplane Single Engine).

See 61.5 and 61.189 for details.


So, I hold two certificates:
  • ATP with Airplane Single Engine Land and Airplane Multiengine Land ratings
  • CFI with Airplane Single Engine, Airplane Multiengine, and Instrument-Airplane ratings.
No doubt some people would say I am a CFI, MEI, and CFII, but it's all really just that one Flight Instructor certificate with three ratings on it.
Click to expand...

How is it possible to have an instrument rating without an aircraft rating?
 
yakdriver said:
Just like my friend is a CFI airplane with no instrument rating. Don
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I personally think it makes a lot more sense to have an aircraft rating without an instrument rating than the other way around, but at least as far as instructors are concerned, the FAA does not agree with me. In any event, at least they don't allow anyone to instruct in an aircraft in which they do not have an instructor aircraft rating even if they have an instructor instrument rating.
 
Jaybird180 said:
How is it possible to have an instrument rating without an aircraft rating?
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Remember that we're talking about CFI rating that permits one to teach instrument procedures. One can certainly teach instrument procedures outside of an airplane.

In fact, until about 2 years ago, so long as a CFI with only an "Instrument Airplane" also had a commercial pilot certificate with the appropriate aircraft rating, she was permitted to teach instruments in that type of aircraft.

It resulted in some interesting but surprisingly common scenarios:

  1. The most common was the commercial pilot with aircraft and instrument pilot ratings who decided to get his CFI-IA as his first CFI certificate/rating combination and start teaching instruments in airplane right away, so long as he didn't teach them how to fly the airplane (the "student" was already a private pilot with an ASEL rating).

  2. The second was the Commercial pilot with ASEL, AMEL and IA ratings who only had a CFI with ASE and IA ratings who was able to teach instrument students in a multi. Again, so long as she didn't try to teach them how to fly the airplane.

If that sounds incredibly weird to you I agree. But those scenarios were permitted.
 
midlifeflyer said:
In fact, until about 2 years ago, so long as a CFI with only an "Instrument Airplane" also had a commercial pilot certificate with the appropriate aircraft rating, she was permitted to teach instruments in that type of aircraft.
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It was never true, but a lot of people including some in the FAA thought it was. They were wrong.
 
Ron Levy said:
Because for instructors, the FAA allows it. If I were in charge, I wouldn't, but I'm not in charge.
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Ah, I get it, one can teach and not do. All theory, no practical application.
 
Ron Levy said:
It was never true, but a lot of people including some in the FAA thought it was. They were wrong.
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You can quibble that the Chef Counsel never liked the idea. And I will personally agree that it was based on an incorrect reading of the existing reg.

But (a) appearing as a specific OK in a published FAA Order (not even including the disowned FAQ) and (b) the reg getting tweaked to clarify it fits my definition of being once allowed by the FAA, despite my personal opinion of it.

And, sorry Ron but 2004 Regional opinions don't count ;)
 
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Jaybird180 said:
Ah, I get it, one can teach and not do. All theory, no practical application.
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I guess you don't agree with the concepts that a ground training device is a better and more efficient instrument flying "classroom" than an airplane and that instrument flying is only 20% about the flying and 80% about the procedures.
 
I know of some folks who teach instrument flying in simulators only. For them, the CFI with just the instrument rating lets them earn a living.

Hey Ron, what's the latest thinking on Ground instructors with an instrument rating teaching solely in sims? I've heard conflicting stories on this. My reading of the regs is that "flight instruction" is in an airplane, and everything else is "ground instruction", so sim work is ground instruction. But I've also heard of sim training facilities requiring a flight instructor certificate with an instrument rating, and an IGI isn't enough.
 
TMetzinger said:
Hey Ron, what's the latest thinking on Ground instructors with an instrument rating teaching solely in sims? I've heard conflicting stories on this. My reading of the regs is that "flight instruction" is in an airplane, and everything else is "ground instruction", so sim work is ground instruction. But I've also heard of sim training facilities requiring a flight instructor certificate with an instrument rating, and an IGI isn't enough.
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Someone finally asked the Chief Counsel about IGI's giving training in sims, and the answer was a flat "no." It's on their web site.
 
Ron Levy said:
Someone finally asked the Chief Counsel about IGI's giving training in sims, and the answer was a flat "no." It's on their web site.
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I'll have to look it up and try to follow the reasoning. I suspect alcohol will be required. Thanks.

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2
 
Thanks for the heads-up, I did not know about this:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2010/Gatlin.pdf

"...the omission of any grant of authority allowing ground instructors to supervise flight training time in a flight simulator or flight training device is evidence that ground instructors are not authorized instructors for purposes of conducting flight training in flight simulators or flight training devices. "
 
TMetzinger said:
I'll have to look it up and try to follow the reasoning. I suspect alcohol will be required. Thanks.

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2
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Personally I think the IGI is way too easy to get...pretty much anyone can pass a few written tests with published answer pools, the CFI on the other hand..takes some effort.

I just don't think there is enough to ensure an IGI can provide good instruction in a device designed to simulate an airplane..there is nothing to say they've ever even been in an airplane or a simulator for that matter...which is why I'd guess the FAA doesn't allow it.
 
Oh, I get it from a practical standpoint. I just think they should change the definition of "flight instruction" to match - instruction given in an airplane, simulator or other training device designed to mimic an aircraft.

And let ground instruction be defined as training given in knowledge subjects and not psychomotor skills.
 
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