Dumb Country Pilot with ATC Question

OkieFlyer

OkieFlyer

En-Route
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
3,225
Location
Lindsay, OK
Display Name
Andrew L.
Home Airfield
1K2 Lindsay Muni.
So I'm planning to overnight at KRVS, R.L. Jones Airport in Tulsa before trekking to Oshkosh next week. It's a Class D airport within Tulsa Class C airspace, well right on the edge of the outer ring anyway. Looking at the AFD for RVS, it has a clearance delivery frequency. I've never departed a Class B or C airport, and none of the Class Ds I've been to have clearance delivery, so I've always just called up ground when ready to taxi. That said, I think I've only done it by myself a couple times, 2-3 years ago. Like I said, I'm a country boy. The most communicating I do with ATC is transitioning the Tulsa Class C to a little untowered field under the outer ring. Not much to it.

So, what to I say to clearance delivery, and what do I expect them to tell me? Am I just getting a clearance into Class C before departing the D so Tulsa App/Dep knows to expect me?


Sorry, I know I've been taught this, but if you don't use it you lose it. Please give me a hand when you get done shaking your head with disgust.

Thanks,
Andrew
 
When I have flown out of RVS, I just started with Ground.
 
But if you need to or go to a Class C

"Clearance Delivery, Cessna Xyz VFR to OSH with information Tango"
They will read you some instructions which you should write down and read them back.
Then switch to ground and follow the given instructions.

Their instructions might be
Cessna xyz, squawk 6969, fly runway heading at or below 3500
At some point they will let you do your own thing.
Cessna Altitude your descresion, direct OSH, etc...
 
Okay, thanks Bryan. My desired route would actually take me across the Class C, so I will need to use clearance delivery then.
 
The ATIS will usually give you a hint on who to contact for a squawk code. Usually if you call up ground they'll coordinate something but every airport is different
 
RVS is class D so if VFR I would call ground and request flight following when I let them know that I'm ready to taxi. If they can coordinate, the will. If they can't, they will tell you to contact CD.
 
Yup, I am listening to LiveATC for RVS and they are calling up ground and asking for Flight Following.
Ground is giving them the squawk code and departure frequency (124.0) to switch after taking off.
 
Whew!!!!! So now I'm 1 for 3 because I typed the answer to a couple of regulation questions without proofreading a while back. See, I am a real pilot!!! and maybe slightly sleep deprived and intoxicated.....
 
Whats funny is what @OkieFlyer points out about not using it and losing it.
3 weeks ago, I arrived / departed a Class C and was like "What the hell am I supposed to tell CD?"

So here I am 350 hours of flying and I can't recall for the life of me what I am supposed to say to these guys.
The night before departing, I am googling and making notes on my kneeboard.

In 4 years I think i have landed at 3 Class C airports.
Wonder where else I need to go sharpen the axe.
 
I am based at a Class C (Reno, NV).

Leaving Reno, Clearance delivery never has any real limiting instructions:

Me: Reno Clearance, Dakota 123AB, VFR to Boise with Tango.
Them: Dakota 123AB, Reno Clearance, Depart on course, Departure frequency 119.2, squawk 5521.
(Then just read it back).

Me: Reno Ground, Dakota 123AB, at GA East Ramp, ready to taxi with Tango.
Them: Dakota 123AB, Reno Ground. Runway 16R, taxi via Charlie, hold short runway 16L.
(Then just read it back).

I have never been given an altitude restriction from clearance but it could happen.
 
You tell CD direction of departure and the ATIS code if VFR. You can give them a destination and request flight following if you want. Then you contact Ground with a "ready to taxi" with your location and runway.

That is, IF CD is handling VFR departures. What they are really for is IFR clearances. Some C's use CD for VFR, some use Ground.

You do not use CD for any arrival or transition. You use Approach.

I generally get restrictions from Tower or Departure, if at all. CD (or Ground) will just give you a squawk code and frequency.
 
Think of of it this way for Clearance Delivery...in B and C for VFR Ops, CD is just Ground's secretary. They are taking all the info and giving you the instructions before heading over to ground who is managing the movements. You would start with CD just as you would ground at any other towered airport...who you are, where you are and what you want. Only difference over a Delta is that they will give you a squawk and route instructions while inside Charlie airspace. All of that is happening on the radio with CD because ground is usually busy actually moving airplanes. When you are ready to taxi, over to ground.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Whats funny is what @OkieFlyer points out about not using it and losing it.
3 weeks ago, I arrived / departed a Class C and was like "What the hell am I supposed to tell CD?"

So here I am 350 hours of flying and I can't recall for the life of me what I am supposed to say to these guys.
The night before departing, I am googling and making notes on my kneeboard.

In 4 years I think i have landed at 3 Class C airports.
Wonder where else I need to go sharpen the axe.
Click to expand...

Dude, it's somewhat embarrassing to have to ask these things. I am one of "those" guys that avoids towered airports. I just don't process information as quickly as controllers spit it out. The worst thing for me is the condensed, fragmented phraseology. I'm used to speaking plain English. I'll get it done, but there will probably be a disgruntled controller come next Wednesday. I think every towered airport in the south should have one hick controller on duty at all times.

"Riverside ground, Skylane thirty three twenty three yankee, how 'boutcha"

"This is ground. Come on twenty three yankee."

"Yeah, I'm parked down here kindly on the south end, where most folks park, and we're looking to blaze a trial outta here to the northwest. Reckon we can make that happen?"

"Aight, what you wanna do is, put 'er in gear and run 'er on down to the sign that says A. That's taxiway Alfa, like alfalfa. You'll foller that'n all the way down to the end, but you gotta shut 'er down before you cross the runway there kindly in the middle. When I tell ya, book it on across the runway, and run on down to the end there. If y'ont to, you can whoop 'er in there and run 'er up. When yer ready, g'on and holler at the tower boys on 124.4 and the'll let ya know when you can get on down the road. When they tell ya, be sure and put the hammer down. You don't want to get caught dilly dallyin' 'er you'll wind up with one of them Lears up yer tail pipe."

"That's a big ten four. 'Preciate ya, Pard."

"Aight then, w'ell see ya. Have a good'n. "


That would be so much easier ;)
 
After OSH, lets go flying.
I will come up there to make a Pizza run or bring you down here and we will try to go through the DFW Bravo.
I will PM you my number or find you next week and hook up.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
After OSH, lets go flying.
I will come up there to make a Pizza run or bring you down here and we will try to go through the DFW Bravo.
I will PM you my number or find you next week and hook up.
Click to expand...

That sounds good. I think you'll be leaving about the time I'm arriving at OSH. We're coming in Wednesday around noon.
 
Mason said:
Have you flown to Oshkosh before? It might just be a little more tricky than what you are discussing here...
Click to expand...

Been once, but wasn't the PIC. The OSH approach doesn't bother me. I'm prepared.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Whats funny is what @OkieFlyer points out about not using it and losing it.
3 weeks ago, I arrived / departed a Class C and was like "What the hell am I supposed to tell CD?"

So here I am 350 hours of flying and I can't recall for the life of me what I am supposed to say to these guys.
The night before departing, I am googling and making notes on my kneeboard.

In 4 years I think i have landed at 3 Class C airports.
Wonder where else I need to go sharpen the axe.
Click to expand...

In almost all cases the following works....

Who you're calling...
Who you are...
Where you are...
What you want...

Four W's. People make this stuff too hard.

Who you're calling... Colorado Springs Clearance Delivery...
Who you are... The only remaining Cirrus that hasn't pulled the chute handle yet...
Where you are... East ramp...
What you want... VFR to OSH

And of course if it's an initial contact with the facility and they have an ATIS...

"... with information Zulu"

Works for ground, tower, approach/departure, center... Even just frequency changes...

Who you're calling... Denver Approach
Who you are... Skylane 1279M
Where you are... Level 7 thousand
What you want... (Can be omitted here, but it's obvious.)

Don't make it rocket science. Four W's and plain English and they'll figure it out.

Texas Tower, Cirrus OH-CRAP, lost, mayday. :)
 
Shawn said:
Think of of it this way for Clearance Delivery...in B and C for VFR Ops, CD is just Ground's secretary. They are taking all the info and giving you the instructions before heading over to ground who is managing the movements. You would start with CD just as you would ground at any other towered airport...who you are, where you are and what you want. Only difference over a Delta is that they will give you a squawk and route instructions while inside Charlie airspace. All of that is happening on the radio with CD because ground is usually busy actually moving airplanes. When you are ready to taxi, over to ground.
Click to expand...
The reason CD exists is because IFR clearances can take a while and plug up the frequency while lots of movement is going on. VFR may be an issue as well, or maybe not. It doesn't hurt to contact them first and get handed off, if ATIS doesn't say.

There are a few D's with CD. KVNY, for instance. It's not only B and C.
 
When at a class c or a class d I am unfamiliar with I always call up just before startup if it is provided. Last thing I want to do is call up with an engine running and be told I am 5th in line to receive my clearance.
At my Class D home airport, Kccr, the CD freq is often manned by the ground controller. If it's a shorter IFR clearance I am familiar with I will let the ground guy know I'll pick it up in the run up. That way is the quickest for me to get off the ground.

If you are at a class D and you ask the ground guy for a CD he isn't going to scold at you, he'll either give it to you or ask to contact CD.
Class C, call up CD first unless the atis says otherwise.
 
Country mouse here too with 99.99999999% of my flying is 1-2 hour local joy of flying flights and most of the controlled airports near me I would have to go a little out of my way to get there. It isn't so much I don't know theoretically how it works it is just I don't ever have need to so talking to ATC is always a little nerve-racking when I have to do it. I have 177 hours and have flown into controlled airports probably less than 10 times. I have used flight following a couple times. Since I came back to flying a few years ago I think I have flown into class D airports 2 times both were while working on BFR stuff. I may make it a goal this next year to hit a few class Cs just for practice.
 
a combination of what everyone has already said:
1) start with ATIS because you'll need the info, but sometimes it will also tell you who to contact
2) if atis doesn't tell you, start with clearance, they may tell you to contact someone else, either way:
3) tell them who you are and what you want to do and that you have atis info, be prepared to write some stuff down
4) finish every call with "YEEEEEEEEHHHAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW". I mean, you ARE a self-proclaimed country boy, aint'cha?
 
... or hot damn boy, now that's a clearance.
 
OkieFlyer said:
Sorry, I know I've been taught this, but if you don't use it you lose it. Please give me a hand when you get done shaking your head with disgust.

Thanks,
Andrew
Click to expand...

Personally, I'm delighted you asked this. I'm at the beginning, and just now learning about the airspace classes (or trying to) so I hope you get a lot of great answers!

I get the feeling it is somewhat too like (in addition to the technical reasons for the radio calls) learning a language, which I did when I came to Norway and also am in the process for learning italian. The phrasebooks turists buy, can help, but the problem is so you can say "Please tell me the way to the train station" and even if you get it right you hear back something that sounds like gibberish.

I get the feeling learning to "unpack" all the info in experienced peoples transmissions is the real trick. Though I'm totally open to being totally wrong.
 
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LongRoadBob said:
Personally, I'm delighted you asked this. I'm at the beginning, and just now learning about the airspace classes (or trying to) so I hope you get a lot of great answers!
Click to expand...

I think what you meant to say was:

"Personally, I'm delighted you asked this. I'm at the beginning, and just now learning about the airspace classes (or trying to) so I hope you get a lot of great answers! YEEEEHHAAAWWWWWW!!!!"
 
eman1200 said:
4) finish every call with "YEEEEEEEEHHHAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW". I mean, you ARE a self-proclaimed country boy, aint'cha?
Click to expand...

After a few trips to a Charlie, that turns into "Hold my beer and watch this, y'all!"
 
Andrew:

I'm based at KRVS. Take your cue from ATIS. It will explicitly say whether to contact CD or ground - e.g. "all departures contact ground for clearance . . . " Most of the time, they just have you contact ground. I've been flying VFR and IFR out of RVS for about 20 years and can only recall using the clearance delivery frequency a couple of times. Call up is simple, "Riverside ground, Cessna 3323Y at Christiansen Jet Center with [ATIS], request radar services to the NE." You'll most likely get back, "Cessna 23Y, Riverside ground, maintain at or below 2,500, Tulsa departure frequency [will be whatever ATIS said for arrivals], squawk xxxx, advise when ready to taxi."

One quirk about KRVS is they want you to advise ground when your run-up is complete, and do so before leaving the run-up area. Ground will then tell you what number you are for departure and tell you to contact tower when you are number 1. When they give you that direction, go get in your appropriate place in line.

KRVS controllers are excellent! They are usually very patient. There are a couple big flight school on the field and sometimes the students can be very hard to understand. If the controllers can communicate with those students, they can surely communicate with a "hick" from Lindsay.

Feel free to PM me if you want to chat personally about coming in/going out.

Craig
 
OkieFlyer, it seems your questions have been answered, but if you get a chance while you're at OSH, swing by the Pilot Proficiency Center (located at the 4 Corners this year) and book a free session in one of the sims. Pick the "Hello Clearance!" and "Ready to Taxi" scenarios (VFR #7 and #8 here: http://www.eaapilotproficiency.com under the Simulator Scenarios link).

These will give you some great opportunities to practice copying some detailed VFR departure clearances and taxi instructions. Those scenarios were designed for someone in your exact situation....stick & rudder skills are good to go, but rusty on comms at more complex airports!

If you register and pre-brief the scenario on the site, you get to do an extra scenario if you like, too.
 
MAKG1 said:
The reason CD exists is because IFR clearances can take a while and plug up the frequency while lots of movement is going on.
Click to expand...
^^^^ THAT

VFR pilots don't bother even checking for a CD frequency when departing a Delta airport, they just call up ground with "ready to taxi". Sometimes they give direction of departure, sometimes they do ask for FF.
The CD frequency is always listed on the airport diagram and in the A/FD.

Again, if the tower has a problem with an order of calls, they'll tell ya. :)

Now go fly and enjoy!
 
BigBadLou said:
^^^^ THAT

VFR pilots don't bother even checking for a CD frequency when departing a Delta airport, they just call up ground with "ready to taxi". Sometimes they give direction of departure, sometimes they do ask for FF.
The CD frequency is always listed on the airport diagram and in the A/FD.

Again, if the tower has a problem with an order of calls, they'll tell ya. :)

Now go fly and enjoy!
Click to expand...

And then of course there's goofy APA with...

"VFR departures advise ground controller your direction of flight, advise ground controller if run-up is complete, remain on ground frequency until advised, advise controller on initial contact you have Zulu."

Best to check that ATIS! Heh. We don't switch to Tower on our own at APA and haven't for a few years now. They taxi you to an official run-up area if your run-up is still needed, and they're painted as leaving the movement area, so you call ground again to get out of them, then they taxi you in sequence to the runway and issue "monitor Tower" not "contact Tower" and they call you.

At night/after hours all of the above turns into, "all services on tower frequency 118.9, VFR departures advise controller direction of flight and whether run-up is complete..."
 
There are exceptions at some Class D airports, albeit very rare ones. Teterboro, NJ (KTEB) is one of them. The ATIS specifically says that all departures need to contact CD. Heaven help you if don't.

If you don't hear anything on the ATIS, though, I would definitely just call ground at a Class D field.
 
At KRVS, just call up ground (121.7) and let 'em know you're ready to taxi (after getting ATIS )and your route. You'll stay with them until after you finish your run-up, then just tell them you've completed the run-up and they'll give you taxi instructions to the runway and tell you to contact tower (120.3). I've never called "clearance delivery" since I started flying out of RVS. After take-off, they'll hand you off to one of the two Tulsa frequencies which are given to you in the ATIS briefing, usually 134.7.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Whats funny is what @OkieFlyer points out about not using it and losing it.
3 weeks ago, I arrived / departed a Class C and was like "What the hell am I supposed to tell CD?"

So here I am 350 hours of flying and I can't recall for the life of me what I am supposed to say to these guys.
The night before departing, I am googling and making notes on my kneeboard.

In 4 years I think i have landed at 3 Class C airports.
Wonder where else I need to go sharpen the axe.
Click to expand...
'''

One more time: AIM 4-2-1(b): "Since concise phraseology may not always be adequate, use whatever words are necessary to get your message across."

In other words, there is no list of approved phrases for pilots...controllers must adhere to the phraseology in the 7110.65, but there is no similar requirement for pilots.

Bob Gardner
 
coma24 said:
There are exceptions at some Class D airports, albeit very rare ones. Teterboro, NJ (KTEB) is one of them. The ATIS specifically says that all departures need to contact CD. Heaven help you if don't.
Click to expand...
I feel only pity for the pilot who fires up or taxies out without even checking the ATIS/AWOS/ASOS first. It should be silently implied. I think we all are smart here to know to do that first. Or at least I hope. :D
 
bobmrg said:
'''

One more time: AIM 4-2-1(b): "Since concise phraseology may not always be adequate, use whatever words are necessary to get your message across."

In other words, there is no list of approved phrases for pilots...controllers must adhere to the phraseology in the 7110.65, but there is no similar requirement for pilots.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

I'm so fed up with this BS response. STOP telling people not to worry about what to say. I know what you're TRYING to do......."don't be so concerned with phraseology that you let it get in the way", I get it. everyone freakin gets it. you are right. but he seems to be, as others have done when you've thrown this garbage their way, asking 'WHAT INFORMATION, TO WHOM do I relay it to, and how do I do so without stumbling and fumbling and clogging up the radio?'. There is NOTHING wrong with asking this question, especially here on the forum. and there IS a requirement, as usually presented on ATIS..........."advise direction of flight and requested altitude blah blah".

there may not be a REQUIREMENT on language, but there is a proper way and a bad way. if you want want examples of bad ways, watch Mr. Aviation101's videos. if you are flying into charlie/bravo or other uncharted territory (for you) then ASK HERE and you'll most likely get an answer that will HELP YOU with that process. will it meet some sort of documented lingo? NO, because as bob points out, there isn't any, but if you are unsure, PLEASE CONTINUE TO ASK HERE so people can advise you what is widely accepted practice, and so you will feel more comfortable when you actually get in that situation.

bob's point is "just ask in english if you aren't sure". and I hope WE ALL GET THAT. as for who to call and what to say, the rest of us have answered that question for you.

bob, no disrespect, but maybe you just need to read between the lines a little better. I think this post was more a general process question than a word-for-word reference type question.
 
I would just add that at least around here, clearance delivery likes to know your initial cruising altitude. "Austin Clearance, Cessna 1234, VFR to Waco, three thousand five hundred with alpha"
 
KRVS is a great airport to stop at and you'll find plenty of hotels nearby and food & shopping at the nearby Tulsa Hills Shopping Center. (North out the gate to 81st then west 1 mile to Olympia) There are a LOT of students around here so ATC is very patient and accommodating.

If you're not already on flight following contact TUL approach about 20 miles out, tell them you're landing at Riverside, and give them the ATIS code. ATIS will tell you which frequency to contact approach on, but coming from the SW it will likely be 134.7 unless they're not very busy, then it will be 124.0. They'll give you approach instructions and expected runway. (likely "enter midfield right downwind for 19R") They may tell you to proceed north of Sapulpa to enter the downwind so be familiar with where it is on the chart. (SW of Tulsa)

Approach will hand you off to RVS tower 5-10 miles from the field. The tower frequency will be 120.3, not 119.2 like the chart and AFD would lead you to think. 119.2 is only used for the east runway when there are a lot of students in the pattern.

On departure ATIS will tell you whether to contact CD or ground but CD is rarely used. Let ground know your tail number, location on the field and that you want flight following to wherever your next stop is. They'll get you a squawk code and departure frequency pretty quick and tell you to stay at or below 2,500. During the busy times expect departure frequency to be 134.7 and you'll be handed off to 124.0 as you get closer to TUL. During slow times they may give you 124.0 right off the bat.

19R has an obvious runup pad on the left at the end of taxiway A, for 1L just pull off the taxiway to the right onto the ramp area across from the hold short line. If there are others planes in the runup area ground control likes for you to report "N1234, Runup Complete" when you're ready to go so they can sequence you for takeoff, otherwise, just pull up to the hold short line when you're ready. Contact the tower and tell them you're number 1 at 19R or 1L and give them your direction of flight. Expect to get runway heading initially, especially if its busy.

Local noise abatement procedure is no turns until reaching 1,500' unless instructed to turn early. Departing to the NE off of 19R you can expect to be vectored to the east until you cross TUL's approach/departure corridor and then on course. If they're using 1L (unlikely over the next few days) they may have you go west and north of TUL or over the top of it before going on course.

No ramp fees and usually no overnight tie-down fees. Christiansen Jet Center is the bigger full service FBO on the north end of the ramp, Riverside Flight Center is the smaller one near the center of the field. (PM me if you'd like my recommendation) If you have any other questions about RVS or Tulsa let me know.

What time/day will you be coming through?

ETA: Oops, didn't see there were already some good responses from fellow RVS pilots. Just add my input to theirs and have a great flight! :)
 
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Dbarbee said:
KRVS is a great airport to stop . . . If you have any other questions about RVS or Tulsa let me know.

What time/day will you be coming through?
Click to expand...

Hey Daniel, great to see you posting! PM me and let me know how you've been.
 
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