DUI/definition of arrest

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TMetzinger said:
please name reasons a COURT would order booking at a plouce station other than an arrest warrant.

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Okay well think of it this way. A husbands wife was murdered. Of course the husband would automatically be one of the lead suspects. Well in order to properly compare evidence from the crime scene to the husband, the court would order him to have his fingerprints and photos taken. This does not mean he has been arrested, yet. That would not happen until that evidence was examined and compared. Fingerprints and photographs are for identification purposes ONLY. Yes, it is part of the process during an arrest but in itself does not constitute an arrest. As stated before, until you are detained, read your rights, and brought in, you have not been arrested.
 
In all seriousness, I'm surprised to see the OP taking issue with the information (plan of action) posted by Dr. Bruce? I'm new to this community, but I figured out right away Bruce is the answer man for medical issues. To have an AME posting advice is a real asset to this discussion. Too bad the OP appears to be ignoring it.

OP: You do have a problem—actually a multitude of problems, with denial at the top of the list. If you do ever find yourself with a medical, do me a favor and post a message before you go flying. I'll drive that day.
 
The fingerprinting/photographing seems to me like the OP was arrested and immediately released on his own recognizance, which seems borne out by the BG check showing that as the date of arrest.
 
Unregistered said:
The court can order fingerprints and photgraphs for any number of reasons. That alone does not mean he was arrested. Until you are detained, read your rights and officially booked, you have not been arrested. Saying that in some states a citation for a misdomeanor counts as an arrest (as in previous posts) is not valid. If you get a trespassing ticket for climbing on top of a school, that is a misdemeanor however you were not arrested.
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That isn't accurate. Once you are detained by police and are not free to leave, you are arrested. No need to be read your rights or officially booked. You can be arrested and released without ever seeing a police station or being "booked."
 
cg2112 said:
That isn't accurate. Once you are detained by police and are not free to leave, you are arrested. No need to be read your rights or officially booked. You can be arrested and released without ever seeing a police station or being "booked."
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He wasnt detained.........
 
Unregistered said:
He wasnt detained.........
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I don't know that this is true:

The date of the "arrest" is a month and a week after the date of offense. Which happens to be the same day of the arraignment that i did not attend and the same day my lawyer took me to get finger printed and photographed because it was court ordered.
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Unless he was free to leave at this time, he was very much under arrest. You don't need to be handcuffed and shoved in the back of a cruiser to be arrested.

None of that matters. The record says "arrested," so it needs to be reported to the FAA as an arrest. No arguing back and forth over the legal definition of "arrest" is going to change that.
 
I've met airline pilots who lost their certs because of alcohol and then got them back by doing the check rides again after the minimal hours of dual instruction. They get started on this by making contact with an examiner who often does this. I know this because the plane I previously rented was the one they used for the dual and checkrides, so I met some of them at the airport. I assume the pilots also did some other stuff to get their medical cert cleared up, but I never asked them about that.

Anyway, it is possible to report an alcohol problem honestly, follow the rules, and then take steps to get certs back. I've seen several do it.

Not so sure if it is possible without the honest part.
 
Sigh. You both (above noheat) have elements that are correct but are off the mark as to your whole post.

Not every detention is an arrest. On the other hand an arrest doesn't require the full Hollywood treatment of handcuffs, Miranda, transport to jail and booking. Generally an arrest does not require that you be advised of your legal rights until a judicial or quasi-judicial arraignment - though a very small number of states may require it automatically of the officer - unless you are to be questioned afterwards beyond the normal processing information.

Since the OP doesn't want to say what state this was I can't help him further. But the latest unreg above is flatly incorrect. More states consider circumstances under which you are issued a criminal misdemeanor citation as an ARREST, such as Tennessee,
than don't. These are not traffic tickets. The difference from a more traditional "arrest" being that you are in effect released on your own recognizance at the scene (or in this case the hospital?) to be "booked" later at a date and time either noted on the citation or "within x days between the hours of y and z". Which I strongly suspect is when our OP went to be fingerprinted even though he remains clueless as to his own legal circumstances so who can be sure? In some states there is also criminal summons which aren't considered an arrest but which in my experience are not issued without judicial or prosecutor action.

And I still believe that the FAA cares not about such nuance. You were charged with DUI. That it was subsequently dropped is relevant but not definitive and can be explored between you and the FAA AFTER your proper disclosure during the medical process.

Everything else is weasel words.
 
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I told you at the top what you need right now -- competent legal advice from both a criminal defense attorney licensed in your state and an aviation attorney, both of whom have access to all the actual documents, and you need that before you do anything else where the FAA is involved. On this one, nothing less will do, and all the speculation and guesses in the 80-odd posts above are worthless in this very serious and tricky legal situation.
 
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OP here... look I am not trying to be beligerent. Trust me when I say I am listening to the advice. The useful stuff not exactly the ridicule. I am only trying to understand. Everyone on here seems to have there own opinions. Aside from whatever you believe to be the case regarding the incident, the case was dismissed because I was never served the citation properly. I was either served or I wasnt; the judge said I wasnt. As I said in my OP, I filled out the 8500 as honestly as possible. I even put a charge on there that I recieved when I was 12 years old. I am not trying to hide anything. As a member of the federal government, I know the implications of doing such. I was not admitted to the hosptial only ER visit so i checked no for that as well, however I did put that I had seen an occupational therapist for my arm, due to the accident. I am not trying to fool or manipulate anyone or anything, only answering the questions as they are asked. I honestly believed that I had not been arrested. I wasnt detained, etc etc. My lawyer said (after the hearing that lasted ten mintutes that I did not attend) that in any case like this its required to have FP/photos done, so I went and took care of it myself at will, no police escort, nothing. I was not until AFTER I submitted the form that I ran a background check and found that apparently I was arrested.

So the question is this, aside from what you think is the case, yes I understand that on the BG check it says ARREST. Im not denying that much. So, do I wait until the 8500 expires and try again? Or is following through with my scheduled appt(The AME is also my primary care physician so he has access to all my medical records including that night, so there will be no 'hiding' as some of you think I am trying to do) and just tell him that I think I made a clerical error on the form and here's why. Once he has the confirmation code, cant he go it and edit and make changes? I AM trying to be honest, all I wanted to know was the best way to go about it. Wait, or discuss it with my doctor at the physical.
 
Ron Levy said:
I told you at the top what you need right now -- competent legal advice from both a criminal defense attorney licensed in your state and an aviation attorney, both of whom have access to all the actual documents, and you need that before you do anything else where the FAA is involved. On this one, nothing less will do, and all the speculation and guesses in the 80-odd posts above are worthless in this very serious and tricky legal situation.
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Yes I have already contacted my attorney for the arrest record part. At this point though, I dont know of any good aviation attornies nor can I really afford one at this present time.
 
Ron Levy said:
I told you at the top what you need right now -- competent legal advice from both a criminal defense attorney licensed in your state and an aviation attorney, both of whom have access to all the actual documents, and you need that before you do anything else where the FAA is involved. On this one, nothing less will do, and all the speculation and guesses in the 80-odd posts above are worthless in this very serious and tricky legal situation.
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But then also, what would the aviation attorney be able to do if I have not done anything regarding aviation, ("where the FAA is concerned")?
 
Unregistered said:
Wow, all he did was come on here basically for an answer to a simple question. What I get from all of this is he filled out the 8500-8 legitimately not knowing that he had been arrested and has yet to complete the physical and was asking what the best course of action would be. It doesnt seem to me like he is arguing but rather defending against what you all are assuming. Instead of providing useful guidance (with the exception of Bruce C) you slander the crap out of him like your so perfect and hes scum. Im sure youve never made a mistake in your life, right? After reading some of this I wouldnt want to fly with any of you, your ego's take up most of the sky anyway.
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What a coincidence...both you and the OP (which I'm assuming is not you since you referred to him in the 3rd person) seem to eschew apostrophes when typing contractions.

You're not by chance the OP, but with an undiagnosed, multiple personality disorder? If so, I believe the FAA considers that disqualifying as well.
 
Brad Z said:
What a coincidence...both you and the OP (which I'm assuming is not you since you referred to him in the 3rd person) seem to eschew apostrophes when typing contractions.

You're not by chance the OP, but with an undiagnosed, multiple personality disorder? If so, I believe the FAA considers that disqualifying as well.
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Now, what purpose would that serve? No, that is not me, but you may believe as you wish.
 
Ron Levy said:
I told you at the top what you need right now -- competent legal advice from both a criminal defense attorney licensed in your state and an aviation attorney, both of whom have access to all the actual documents, and you need that before you do anything else where the FAA is involved. On this one, nothing less will do, and all the speculation and guesses in the 80-odd posts above are worthless in this very serious and tricky legal situation.
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Well I just emailed an aviation attorney here in my state, see what he says. Thanks for the help
 
Unregistered said:
OP here... look I am not trying to be beligerent. Trust me when I say I am listening to the advice. The useful stuff not exactly the ridicule. I am only trying to understand. Everyone on here seems to have there own opinions. Aside from whatever you believe to be the case regarding the incident, the case was dismissed because I was never served the citation properly. I was either served or I wasnt; the judge said I wasnt. As I said in my OP, I filled out the 8500 as honestly as possible. I even put a charge on there that I recieved when I was 12 years old. I am not trying to hide anything. As a member of the federal government, I know the implications of doing such. I was not admitted to the hosptial only ER visit so i checked no for that as well, however I did put that I had seen an occupational therapist for my arm, due to the accident. I am not trying to fool or manipulate anyone or anything, only answering the questions as they are asked. I honestly believed that I had not been arrested. I wasnt detained, etc etc. My lawyer said (after the hearing that lasted ten mintutes that I did not attend) that in any case like this its required to have FP/photos done, so I went and took care of it myself at will, no police escort, nothing. I was not until AFTER I submitted the form that I ran a background check and found that apparently I was arrested.

So the question is this, aside from what you think is the case, yes I understand that on the BG check it says ARREST. Im not denying that much. So, do I wait until the 8500 expires and try again? Or is following through with my scheduled appt(The AME is also my primary care physician so he has access to all my medical records including that night, so there will be no 'hiding' as some of you think I am trying to do) and just tell him that I think I made a clerical error on the form and here's why. Once he has the confirmation code, cant he go it and edit and make changes? I AM trying to be honest, all I wanted to know was the best way to go about it. Wait, or discuss it with my doctor at the physical.
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Not bad. We're getting there. There are two issues here - the first is legal. If you read one of my first posts on this thread you, the op, and anyone else reading it that I came at it first from the legal persective.

You had my legal thoughts around addressing the issue - once the OP said the documentation said arrest- then thats it. It does not matter to me or the FAA that under some technical legal reading you may not have been formally arrested. The BG says arrest. END. Unless that record gets changed - you were.

Now - the second issue is the medical issue. Lets assume our OP was out drinking with friends at a bar/restaurant - I am not a Doc but I am old enough, experienced enough and educated enough to arrive at some analysis:

1. Imbibed to the point he had no clue what he was doing - drove his car and got into an accident. This is a definition of binge drinking now. Again - the FAA Aeromedical - it was binge drinking. There will be an examination of that.

2. Was a passenger in his car driven by someone else who left the scene before the police arrived - leaving the OP there. Was the blood on the driver seat belt his? If not - then this becomes a reasonable explanatipn - where he was too drunk to drive - someone else drove him - he sobered up enough to know where he was, but not the intervening period. Again - we have an alcohol issue the FAA might be interested in and with enough developed facts, can demonstrate he made a good decision and was not the driver- again - money to get facts on blood typing etc.

3. His friends or someone else drugged him. This is demonstrated in a tox screen. This will require, once again, facts we do not have .

4. He drank - his blacked out - he got into a wreck. Significant Aeromedical implications. This is the most serious situation.

5. Unconsciousness of unknown etiology. Disqualifying until a significant work up.

If the etoh test at the hospital 4 hours later shows .05 or above - you can easily conclude that 4 hours earlier he was 0.10 or above - regardless of weight.

Your aviation attorney will tell you to NOT process that medical application. And spend the next 60 days getting lots of documents.

Next - if the 7 day alcohol evaluation was in-patient - that will require some pretty serious 'splaining.

Does that pretty much sum it up for everyone?
 
comanchepilot said:
Not bad. We're getting there. There are two issues here - the first is legal. If you read one of my first posts on this thread you, the op, and anyone else reading it that I came at it first from the legal persective.

You had my legal thoughts around addressing the issue - once the OP said the documentation said arrest- then thats it. It does not matter to me or the FAA that under some technical legal reading you may not have been formally arrested. The BG says arrest. END. Unless that record gets changed - you were.

Now - the second issue is the medical issue. Lets assume our OP was out drinking with friends at a bar/restaurant - I am not a Doc but I am old enough, experienced enough and educated enough to arrive at some analysis:

1. Imbibed to the point he had no clue what he was doing - drove his car and got into an accident. This is a definition of binge drinking now. Again - the FAA Aeromedical - it was binge drinking. There will be an examination of that.

2. Was a passenger in his car driven by someone else who left the scene before the police arrived - leaving the OP there. Was the blood on the driver seat belt his? If not - then this becomes a reasonable explanatipn - where he was too drunk to drive - someone else drove him - he sobered up enough to know where he was, but not the intervening period. Again - we have an alcohol issue the FAA might be interested in and with enough developed facts, can demonstrate he made a good decision and was not the driver- again - money to get facts on blood typing etc.

3. His friends or someone else drugged him. This is demonstrated in a tox screen. This will require, once again, facts we do not have .

4. He drank - his blacked out - he got into a wreck. Significant Aeromedical implications. This is the most serious situation.

5. Unconsciousness of unknown etiology. Disqualifying until a significant work up.

If the etoh test at the hospital 4 hours later shows .05 or above - you can easily conclude that 4 hours earlier he was 0.10 or above - regardless of weight.

Your aviation attorney will tell you to NOT process that medical application. And spend the next 60 days getting lots of documents.

Next - if the 7 day alcohol evaluation was in-patient - that will require some pretty serious 'splaining.

Does that pretty much sum it up for everyone?
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So let's take it worst case senario, expect the worst, hope for the best... #4 with a BAC of .20. What then?
 
no comment on the rest of it, but I might offer an observation that this:

"AME is also my primary care physician"

is generally not considered a good idea
 
cg2112 said:
That isn't accurate. Once you are detained by police and are not free to leave, you are arrested. No need to be read your rights or officially booked. You can be arrested and released without ever seeing a police station or being "booked."
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"Detained" and "Arrested" are mutually exclusive legal terms. If you are detained, you are not arrested. If you are arrested, you are not detained.

A detention is when someone is not free to leave, but is not under arrest. They are being held due to reasonable suspicion that they have or are committing a crime, and is investigating to either arrest or release you.
An arrest is when the officer has determined that there is probable cause to believe that you have committed an offense, and is charging you with that offense.

It is common to arrest someone and release them on their own recognizance with a criminal summons (like DUI with the suspect at the hospital).
The ticket is the charging document charging you with a criminal offense, but due to your medical condition you are being left at the hospital.
Translation: it isn't worth it to the city/county to pay to have a cop/deputy sit on you until you are released. Additionally, in most states if I don't charge and release you, then you become a prisoner and the city/county owns your hospital bills.

So, the OP was criminally arrested, charged, and released without being transported to jail. Happens all the time with misdemeanors, especially when they have to go to the hospital.
 
JHW said:
no comment on the rest of it, but I might offer an observation that this:

"AME is also my primary care physician"

is generally not considered a good idea
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Can you please explain?
 
Unregistered said:
Well today I ran my background check trying to search something from 15 years ago when I was 12 (because it stopped me from buying a gun last year and I wanted to see what comes up) And yes I put that on the 8500 as well.
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Please describe the juvenile offense that caused you to be NICS blocked for firearms purchasing. This may reveal a pattern of judgment.
 
Unregistered said:
But then also, what would the aviation attorney be able to do if I have not done anything regarding aviation, ("where the FAA is concerned")?
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Tell you, in consultation with the criminal lawyer, whether what you put in the 8500-8 is right or wrong, and then how to fix it if it's wrong. You need both sets of expertise (your state's criminal law and the FAA's administrative law) to figure that out. Then, if it turns out this is reportable, you get with a HIMS AME like Bruce to figure out what to do about the medical certification aspects -- again, before you actually submit this application to an AME by giving him/her the submission code.
 
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momalley said:
maybe someone slipped him a roofie?
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I had this happen to me once. I was found laying in the middle of i-55. I remember getting in my car and driving, then someone slapping me really hard in the face telling me they picked me up in the middle of the highway out cold.

This was a African American man whom saved my life that night. But I do remember driving. I only had one beer that evening.

Will this follow this man his complete life?
 
Morne said:
Please describe the juvenile offense that caused you to be NICS blocked for firearms purchasing. This may reveal a pattern of judgment.
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Please don't. It's not relevant to the discussion at hand.

The discussion at hand is how to handle the discrepancy between the 8500 and the court record.

Since the FAA knows, or will know that OP was charged with OUI, OP need to treat this the way Dr. Bruce suggests. The FAA is not known to let people off on a technicality the way the criminal justice system does. The OP may or may not have been legally arrested. That is water under the bridge. The FAA thinks he was, and he WAS charged with OIU, so the difference doesn't matter.

If the FAA asks about the juvenile offense, you'll need to learn what, if anything, needs to be disclosed. That's a discussion for another day, and not on a public forum.
 
This is my last post. There is so much dung being flung here....

To the OP. Create a new email address. Go back to medxpress it's promised to be up Sunday night. Create it with the box 19A checked yes. SAVE the medxpress. Tear up your old one, never use it.

Gather the documents:

Hospital record
Court records including the officer's description of your behavior.
State Driver's license search.
Hire an SAP (substance abuse professional counselor) to evaluate you- they are state licensed, and this costs about $175 in my neck of the woods. Their base credential is "CADC". Make sure they use FAA format or it'll be useless.
Documentation of whatever it was that redlined you from firearm sales.

Bring it all to the SAP and talk to him for an hour.

When you have all that, decide whether to apply or not. Yes, this will live with you forever unless you get it vetted. What happens depends entirely on what the SAP thinks, and you can decide whether or not to apply based on that.

And that's the real advice. From somebody who does this everyday. Never mind the peanut gallery. You can get an attorney to make you feel good about checking that box "no". But the FAA has it on the tapes as an arrest, and from that moment forward what happens to you under administrative law, and the attorney will not be able to help you with the revocation of the pilot certificate and medical denial. Then you can hire him for three years to pursue it through the courts. "what are you thinkin!"
 
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Unregistered said:
So let's take it worst case senario, expect the worst, hope for the best... #4 with a BAC of .20. What then?
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Dr. Bruce already gave you that - do what he says - you will not really need to speak to the attorney - and just comply with what Dr. Bruce says to do.

Call Dr. Bruce up. Retain his services. Comply. And with any luck and a good file you shall get your medical.

Thanks Bruce -
 
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Without proper legal advice, you have no idea if the FAA Chief Counsel considers what happened to be an "arrest" as that term is used in the instructions for FAA Form 8500-8. Choose wisely.
 
There's usually plenty of room on the 8500-8 for explanations. Nothing stopping the OP from declaring that a DWI arrest is on his state records but that he disputes that data as being inaccurate and that he doe not feel that he was in fact arrested. No perjury that way. OTOH, I doubt that it will cut any ice with the FAA or for that matter, anyone here. As others have said, a consultation with a good aviation attorney should clarify the matter in his mind.
 
steingar said:
Bruce has spoken, and the OP should notice that he's agreeing with most everyone. You can't just say "I wound up in a field with no memory of how I got there" without raising alarm bells in anyone more responsible than a 4 year old. And it would have to be a gullible 4 year old at that.

Oh well, I suspect our OP will go and do whatever he likes and ignore everyone who says otherwise. Gotta love folks who ask for advice and then argue. The one bright spot in all this is none of us will have to share our sky with him.
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Bruce gave good advice. Most of the rest of you just acted like pricks, as usual.
 
wow, with that kind of abuse, I think I need a drink. But then its the day before Saint Pattys Day and I'll prob have a couple of Guinness anyway. . .
 
comanchepilot said:
wow, with that kind of abuse, I think I need a drink. But then its the day before Saint Pattys Day and I'll prob have a couple of Guinness anyway. . .
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Our local grocery store was out of Guinness...true story.
 
Oh how I love to fly
Flying High up in the sky
I found I don't need a drink to get high
For I learned how to fly
 
Your Honor, I throw myself at your feet and beg for mercy on my soul.
I have made some very bad mistakes that only by the grace of God no one died.
I see my errors and want to correct these errors and never repete them.
I have found a pasion for avaition and want with all my heart and soul to become one of the best pilots in the world.
Nothing in life will detour me from this dream I only wish I would have found it sooner before I made these bad decisions. But I found trying to be a pilot is about good decisions and that is what I will be making from this day forward, Only good decisions.

This how I would handle this and this better come from your heart or that Judge will know you are full of CRAP.

You are lucky you did not kill someone or yourself. You are to old for your parents to kick your butt, but the Lord will do it for them. Ask Me I will tell you first hand and its no fun at all.

We all make mistakes everyone of us. Some get caught most don't, but we learn from those mistakes, make sure you learned, even if this was your first drink ever....Do not drink anything and drive anywhere or operate anything bigger then your tooth brush or remote for the TV.

Life is short. You have my support if you do this. Now go live a great life and look to the sky and dream big.
 
ClimbnSink said:
We're pricks and we can handle our alcohol.
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No qualifier needed, just pricks will suffice. I'm not the OP, just someone who reads these threads and is amazed at how everyone responds when somebody asks for help. I would guess that most of you have never been employed in the aviation industry, or at least not for very long, because *******s are weeded out quickly. And there is a flock of *******s here for sure.
 
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