Dual Instruction - Aircraft on Ferry Flight with Permit?

[A1Topgun]

One for the POA Brain Trust.
An aircraft is being flown from airport A to airport B with a Special Flight Permit. Ferry flights do not allow a passenger to be on board the flight. If the flight is no charge dual instruction and the flight instructor and student are considered "crew", is it legal?
Asking for a friend.

 

[Tools]

Well… if it’s a plane that REQUIRES a two person crew, sure. But that’s unlikely! If it did, you might get away with a line check sort of training event, but that’s about it. Both would have to be qualified and legal at the time.

 

[bbchien]

No how now way. And then you are caught with the thing documented in your log. Bad Deal.

 

[aggiepack]

See 14 CFR 21.199 (a) (3)

I cannot imagine that a student pilot is required as a crew member.
Instructing is not mentioned under 14 CFR 21.197 as a legit reason for the application.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I know some guys who got away with it in an Aeronca Chief (someone complained, Feds said they were good), but they were both Commercial pilots. And I don’t think there was instruction involved.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Looking at a sample ferry permit, would you consider a student to be covered by

"Occupancy of the aircraft is limited to the pilot and essential flight crew required to operate the aircraft and its equipment per the aircraft manufacturers current Airplane Flight Manual."​

​

?

 

[RyanShort1]

You can always ask when you submit the ferry request. Doesn’t mean you’ll be approved.

 

[Clip4]

One for the POA Brain Trust.
An aircraft is being flown from airport A to airport B with a Special Flight Permit. Ferry flights do not allow a passenger to be on board the flight. If the flight is no charge dual instruction and the flight instructor and student are considered "crew", is it legal?
Asking for a friend.

61.89(b) A student pilot may not act as a required pilot flight crewmember on any aircraft for which more than one pilot is required by the type certificate of the aircraft or regulations under which the flight is conducted, except when receiving flight training from an authorized instructor on board an airship, and no person other than a required flight crewmember is carried on the aircraft.

 

[Albany Tom]

One for the POA Brain Trust.
An aircraft is being flown from airport A to airport B with a Special Flight Permit. Ferry flights do not allow a passenger to be on board the flight. If the flight is no charge dual instruction and the flight instructor and student are considered "crew", is it legal?
Asking for a friend.

I'll put my jerk hat on. As long as the pilot doesn't have any assets, family, or reputation to worry about, why not? Because if that plane goes in, the student's family is going to sue whomever had the brilliant idea of putting their family member on a ferry flight and killing them. No matter how you spin it, that's how it's going to read.

 

[Ventucky Red]

My take, if you have to ask, there is a 99.99999999% chance what your thinking of doing... is wrong.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'll put my jerk hat on. As long as the pilot doesn't have any assets, family, or reputation to worry about, why not? Because if that plane goes in, the student's family is going to sue whomever had the brilliant idea of putting their family member on a ferry flight and killing them. No matter how you spin it, that's how it's going to read.

Well, sure, if the only question is "will I get caught," there's a whole bunch of things that fall into the "why not?" category. Just for this scenario, we have (except for the student instruction one. these are taken from a real ferry permit):

• Why not carry passengers on a ferry flight?​

• Why not give instruction to a student pilot on a ferry flight?​

• Why not fly over congested areas if the permit says to avoid them?​

• Why not do a bunch of touch & goes at multiple airports enroute when the ferry permit specified the most expeditious and direct route consistent with safety.​

• Why not skip informing ATC it's a ferry flight if you communicate with them?​

• Why not skip the ferry permit altogether?​