Not really. I personally know of one M20 in-flight wing structural failure that happened about 20 years ago in LA and a quick check found two other M20 in-fight failures in CA and MN. Add in the AL one noted post 28 and that would make 4 failures for Mooneys. As to the 12g M20 incident noted above I find two things interesting, one, if it was 12g's, why didn't the pilot lose consciousness at that high g-force, and two, how you injected your personal "why famous" opinion in between your quotes from the official report as though it was part of the report. As I stated, there's more to structural failures than simple "over-engineering" it, which if I recall correctly, there has only been a single in-flight wing spar failure by overload/over-stress on a PA-28.
Drunk Teen in Car De-Wings Pilatus, Portsmouth, NH 8/30/26
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Hang 4
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Not to divert to a "wings fall apart on PA-28's" thread, but there are three total
- 1987 PA28 in pipeline inspection service in Texas and had a wing fall off due to extensive high turbulence flying
- 2018 The ERAU Arrow that had questionable maintenance and flying history
- 2023 Ft Pierce Warrior that had the wings ripped off from high G maneuvers (post crash inspection showed no defects)
Perhaps that last one is what you mean by overload/overstress?
Yes. The prior two were due to fatigue failure vs structural overload. And the pictures from those 3 accidents show that difference.
schmookeeg
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The driver definitely took about 30% off of that Pilatapus there, Squirrelly Dan
I'm not supposed to be within 200 yards of a school... or a Chuck E. Cheese.
G loading refers to vertical. Slamming into the leading edge isn't something that there's a rating for. Anyhow, a car slamming into something relatively immobile can easily top 100Gs.
Been awhile since I read the report. Does it say he didn't?
Where did I inject any personal opinion above?
Report indicates he remained conscious and at 6000" regained control. The average person blacks out at 6Gs.
The bullet point "why its famous" part in post 39 which is surrounded by actual quotes and footnotes from the NTSB report.
That's not my opinion/statement thats just part of the writeup about the incident.
Well, it's posted under your name, and that singular "famous" statement is not part of the linked or footnoted report/write up as all other parts of the post are. So, whose statement is it if not yours?
You'd have ask who ever wrote it. I just copied and pasted.
Interesting. So, you copied someone else's words, which you have no clue what they mean, and pasted them in a forum as your own words. And people wonder....
Good grief man read the NTSB report! You don't have to read the other if you don't think its an accurate summary.Interesting. So, you copied someone else's words, which you have no clue what they mean, and pasted them in a forum as your own words. And people wonder....
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The Mooney breakup (a tail failure, not wings) I referred to in AL (post 28) may have been the one you remembered happening in LA. At times my memory gets those 3 Gulf states (LA, MS and AL) mixed up. I'm fairly diligent on noticing and then learning details on any Mooney crashes... especially if there was reported to be a breakup. Considering about 65 years in service with tens of thousands produced, regardless of 1 or a few more, Mooneys have an excellent record of remaining in one piece.
Regarding pulling G's to the point of becoming unconscious, I've always figured once blacked out you stop pulling, the blood rushes back into the brain, and you wake up after involuntarily releasing all those G's. Is it possible to quickly pull 12 G's before blacking out then letting go of the wheel? I don't know, but I would imagine it could be possible, even if it's very unlikely.
Hit a tractor, as well. In a state that doesn't require auto insurance. And he's a minor. And was wanted for other crimes.
NH teen allegedly caused crash at airport while driving under the influence, police say
The suspect allegedly drove his car through a fence and across an aircraft parking apron before crashing into a tractor and an aircraft.www.boston.com
View attachment 154676That should buff out.
That should buff out.Hit a tractor, as well. In a state that doesn't require auto insurance. And he's a minor. And was wanted for other crimes.
NH teen allegedly caused crash at airport while driving under the influence, police say
The suspect allegedly drove his car through a fence and across an aircraft parking apron before crashing into a tractor and an aircraft.www.boston.com
View attachment 154676
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
I would point out that transitory 12gs is tolerated by humans at about equivalent to 4.5 g sustained....and I don't have a refence for that....B
The LA accident lost its wings as well and is stated in the report.
And so do PC-12s which was my original point. And especially when one uses a vehicle hitting a wing as the initial comparison to overall strength.
Again, that's for flight conditions in a more or less vertical direction. You drive your car into another object at 40 MPH, even with the crumple zones and other mitigating factors, you can sustain up to 50g with a modern restraint system without much injury.
Cap'n Jack
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Does the person really sustain 50 g? I note your comment about crumple zones, but those crumple zones, air bag, and restraint tend to reduce the actual forces greatly by extending the time of the deceleration.
Without the energy absorbing stuff to slow the deceleration, the forces can get up to a rather unsurvivable 100gs.
But again, we're not making an apples-to-apples comparison. Subjecting a pilot or a wing to 5g vertical flight forces is an entirely different thing than driving a car into the leading edge and hitting many times more than in force in a direction that it's not expected to withstand.
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I recently had a conversation with an engineer employed by one of the NASCAR teams in the development of the latest safety upgrades allowed for use in all race cars. He claimed crash forces (worse case) during a race can exceed 100 G's.
The impact safety designs NASCAR utilizes allows many drivers to walk away uninjured from a crash that would very likely kill them without the use of these safety enhancements (which also include flame arresting wetting agent discharge and drivers wearing FR clothing).
My take on this conversation was that without greatly reducing high G impact forces, the human body couldn't survive 100 G's, or any forces approaching that level.
Part of the vehicle can definitely see 100g's. The driver doesn't see that. Imagine shoving a coke can into a wall at 10 fpm. THe part that hits the wall first decelerates from 10fpm to 0 in near zero time. but the end with your hand, takes a second or so to crumple to a stop and sees lower g forces.
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A lot of people get the requirements confused in NH. There's no requirement to wear a seat belt when driving. But you must have insurance (or proof of financial responsibility).
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I'm not going to get into the "overdesigned" argument other than to note load-bearing capability comes with a cost of additional structural weight, which eats into useful load. Not everyone thinks that is a fair trade.
On the subject of g-induced loss of consciousness (GLOC) and recovery I can speak from both training and firsthand experience to say that one does not instantaneously recover from a GLOC event. You might regain some level of consciousness but it takes more than an instant to regain rational thought and even longer to regain fine motor control enough to recover from an upset. I question the accuracy of the 12g number and how it was estimated. If it was short enough in duration it may not have caused GLOC but then I question the description of the upset.
Nauga,
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Mass and velocity is also a factor…. A much heavier vehicle going significantly faster hitting a lighter vehicle will experience lower “g’s”. An early 1970’s land yacht doing 30 t-boning the front fender of a stopped Prius is going to have a much larger effect on the stationary driver than it would if the vehicles were reversed…
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He was fleeing from the police drunk, and already wanted for other activities. I suspect a strong father figure is not a feature in his life.