Drones close to home

tree96

tree96

Line Up and Wait
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Display name:
tree96
So I'm looking through my Facebook feed today and notice that someone shared an aerial video of a town close to me. Turns out some hobbyist/rc/photography guys have started a page sharing videos and photos from rc planes and quad copters. Some of the photos are in IMC. To each their own, but this is less than 3 miles from an airport we shoot approaches in to.

They have a YouTube channel
http://m.youtube.com/channel/UCKOc0Z77e1FjPfgO-pzEbmA

As well as a Facebook page. I'm not sure how I feel about the possibility of being in the same place at the same time with one of these things. What would you response be?
 
There are a lot of rules that the AMA (Academy of Model Aeronautics) has to keep RC planes and full scale planes apart. Including the need for spotters if the vehicle is flown via a remote television hookup, a ceiling on the altitude and a limit to how close you can fly to an airport.

Of course, with the advent of Almost Ready to Fly stuff, any fool can get one and start flying. Those of us who have been flying RC for a long time try to rein in the cowboy flying, but we can't be every where!:wink2:
 
In one of his pics...

"Tried busting through the clouds today, but they were just too darn high."

I fly in the area too. It would not be difficult to find this kid with all of the video and pics he is posting.

Here is his FB page Mr. FAA inspector...

http://www.facebook.com/aershots
 
skyking3286 said:
There are a lot of rules that the AMA (Academy of Model Aeronautics) has to keep RC planes and full scale planes apart. Including the need for spotters if the vehicle is flown via a remote television hookup, a ceiling on the altitude and a limit to how close you can fly to an airport.

Of course, with the advent of Almost Ready to Fly stuff, any fool can get one and start flying. Those of us who have been flying RC for a long time try to rein in the cowboy flying, but we can't be every where!:wink2:
Click to expand...

Not all RC flyers even know the AMA exists, let alone paying attention to their rules. The FAA relies on the RC pilot to adhere to AMA rules. When something happens, then all of RC will come under tighter FAA scrutiny.

We had a problem in the traffic pattern, 1000ft AGL. Tower called, turn base now. We can't, got an RC on the wing in the way. Problem solved when tower called local police force and the showed up at the retention basin the RC was flying out of.
 
The drone operator IS aware the AMA exists. It's one of his "likes" on his FB page.
 
Yea one of his pictures shows the invite to a club event. Maybe he takes proper care before each flight.
 
You have a lot more to worry about if you are flying at the altitudes in the videos (looked like under 500' to me)

Lot more birds out there than 'drones'
 
dell30rb said:
You have a lot more to worry about if you are flying at the altitudes in the videos (looked like under 500' to me)

Lot more birds out there than 'drones'
Click to expand...

I fly at 1500-3000 AGL through this area at 135-150 kts. Some of his pictures, not videos show "my view" out the windshield. He is in the clouds on a vfr day. I realize the chances of hitting one is low, but so is a bird strike. It does not take much weight to penetrate my 1/4" plexiglass at 150 kts. I have flown r/c for 31 yrs and always remained under 400'. I always dreamed of getting higher like a bird in my own plane. That is one reason why I got my PPC at 38 and finished our RV-10 at 41. Now I can do it legally.
 
RV10flyer said:
I fly at 1500-3000 AGL through this area at 135-150 kts. Some of his pictures, not videos show "my view" out the windshield. He is in the clouds on a vfr day. I realize the chances of hitting one is low, but so is a bird strike. It does not take much weight to penetrate my 1/4" plexiglass at 150 kts. I have flown r/c for 31 yrs and always remained under 400'. I always dreamed of getting higher like a bird in my own plane. That is one reason why I got my PPC at 38 and finished our RV-10 at 41. Now I can do it legally.
Click to expand...


Since it appears that you know what club he seems to belong to, you may wish to contact the club and make them aware of you concerns.
 
I'm waiting for someone to get busted with one of those quadcopters inside the DC FRZ... I can't imagine how many folks are playing around with them 50' off the ground (and legitimately bothering nobody) without realizing they're breaking the law.

It also makes me curious how somebody who is not a pilot is really expected to know about NOTAMS and TFRs...
 
RV10flyer said:
I realize the chances of hitting one is low, but so is a bird strike. It does not take much weight to penetrate my 1/4" plexiglass at 150 kts.
Click to expand...

a guy on the mooney website hit a bird and it busted his windshield and actually damaged part of the frame near the door. It surprised me how much damage a bird strike could cause.
 
rbridges said:
a guy on the mooney website hit a bird and it busted his windshield and actually damaged part of the frame near the door. It surprised me how much damage a bird strike could cause.
Click to expand...

A 20# bird took down a B-1B in Colorado, 1987. The B-1 hit the bird at about 540knts, the bird went in just above the right engine, into the wing root pivot area breaking a 4in diameter fexible fuel line and 3 or 4 , 4000psi flexible hydraulic lines. The lines were flexible around the front of the wing pivot. Instant fire.

Birds are solid objects when hit at speed.
 
About two years ago a bird trashed a Cirrus as it departed Austin Bergstrom. The airplane made it back, but the cockpit was really trashed.
 
I've hit one bird, zero drones. I've had probably 10 close calls with birds (one a huge bald eagle) and none with drones.

I agree that I don't want personal drones flying in controlled airspace and especially not in IMC. Just trying to point out that your chances of hitting one are basically nothing. How many here have hit a bird? I'll bet 90% of POA have either hit one or had a near miss. Who can say they had a close call with a drone? I don't think anyone has... I'm sure we would have heard about it.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hobby companies are really pushing the quad copters with camera capability now(FPV). This guy is probably not the only one in his club or area exceeding 400', he is just one of the few dumb enough to post it. Since a flying field is not required, start up cost is relatively low and they are easy to fly, I am betting we will be seeing a lot more of them. Thankfully, I have not been closer than 100' from a bird in flight.
 
RV10flyer said:
Hobby companies are really pushing the quad copters with camera capability now(FPV). This guy is probably not the only one in his club or area exceeding 400', he is just one of the few dumb enough to post it. Since a flying field is not required, start up cost is relatively low and they are easy to fly, I am betting we will be seeing a lot more of them. Thankfully, I have not been closer than 100' from a bird in flight.
Click to expand...

According to the AMA safety guidelines, below 400' is only the rule if you are flying within 3mi of an airport.

R/C sailplanes regularly exceed this in sanctioned competitions.
 
This gentleman is flying within 3 mi of KGAS. On their approach/departure flight path. I guess the FAA and AMA disagree. Until someone important gets killed by one of these 2 lb drones, nothing will be enforced.
 
My father was interested in breaking into the aerial photography and aerial videography business recently and was looking to combine his commercial rating in aircraft and a traditional camera setup, with a heavy-duty quad copter and a gimbal mounted HD camera for close up aerial video. I convinced him to call the FAA on it because, even though he's commercially rated, the rules are basically non-existent for drones flown for commercial purposes.

Anyway, long story short, he called around and I believe (super hearsay here) that someone at either the FSDO or AOPA informed him to expect some sort of legal ruling from the FAA within the year on how to go about using drones for commercial purposes. Taking my hearsay one step further to supposition, I suspect that the FAA will also make some sore of firm ruling on when and where these drones can be flown period.

Given that these really are becoming much more prevalent than simple RC aircraft it doesn't surprise me that the FAA is already working on this. I really hope this doesn't hurt the RC hobbiests but it really sounds like it will.

Hah, maybe they'll just required ADS-B out on all RC planes? :p
 
RV10flyer said:
Until someone important gets killed by one of these 2 lb drones, nothing will be enforced.
Click to expand...

Once in a blue moon someone gets killed by a birdstrike. But if you think about the number of birds flying vs the number of 'drones' it's not likely to happen any time soon.


I would like to see reasonable weight and altitude restrictions imposed on FPV planes. Perhaps a weight limitation, not over congested areas and Class G airspace only. Most of the planes / helicopters built by hobbyists now would not be affected by these rules.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The airspace belongs to all of us. Lets share.
 
RV10flyer said:
I fly at 1500-3000 AGL through this area at 135-150 kts. Some of his pictures, not videos show "my view" out the windshield. He is in the clouds on a vfr day. I realize the chances of hitting one is low, but so is a bird strike. It does not take much weight to penetrate my 1/4" plexiglass at 150 kts. I have flown r/c for 31 yrs and always remained under 400'. I always dreamed of getting higher like a bird in my own plane. That is one reason why I got my PPC at 38 and finished our RV-10 at 41. Now I can do it legally.
Click to expand...

Most of those videos look like about 50' AGL. Maybe one or two could be 300'. I didn't watch all of them, but I didn't see any that looked anywhere near 1,500'. I think the odds of you running into one of these is effectively nil. Many, many things will kill you flying before a quadcopter drone.
 
Lindberg said:
Most of those videos look like about 50' AGL. Maybe one or two could be 300'. I didn't watch all of them, but I didn't see any that looked anywhere near 1,500'. I think the odds of you running into one of these is effectively nil. Many, many things will kill you flying before a quadcopter drone.
Click to expand...

There's a video on his facebook page here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=602596519762335

I don't know what his display numbers mean but one number shows 1,650F and seems to correspond to his altitude. No idea if this is MSL or AGL but it seems to imply he's well over 300' AGL.
 
ClimbnSink said:
The airspace belongs to all of us. Lets share.
Click to expand...

True. But we've always shared the airspace with those who have equal skin in the game when mistakes are made. Whether airship, glider, B-1, skydiver, balloon, etc, all are exposed to the inherent risk involved when humans try to defy gravity. Mistakes can obviously be deadly and so there is great incentive to act safely and avoid recklessness. With more (exponential?) drone/RC activity though, we will see a greater imbalance in the inherent risks assumed by those sharing the airspace. Since the technology is new and growing, this imbalance of risks will be one which we have yet to experience. This should be of at least some concern. As someone mentioned, all the long-time hobbyists who pride themselves on safety, standards, and who care about promoting the industry, etc. may not reflect the pool of new entrants whose only barrier to entry was the chunk of cash needed to acquire what is now very advanced and available equipment. First step: let's go see if we can capture some video of our toy up in some IMC! What risk do these guys assume when sharing the airspace from the ground? The loss of their investment? Maybe legal liability? The disparity in consequences is pretty dramatic. I guess I felt more comfortable when most everything in the sky was at least was partially compelled to behave responsibly by the desire to avoid untimely death.
 
Irish_Armada said:
Maybe legal liability?
Click to expand...

This is actually a really good point that might dissuade some of the more intelligent people. Even if you take out relatively inexpensive $100,000 hull and don't include any loss of life, the liability should fall entirely on the owner/operator of the drone in my mind.
 
When I'm under my paraglider and C-5s are flying around I don't feel like we have equal skin in the game.
Irish_Armada said:
True. But we've always shared the airspace with those who have equal skin in the game when mistakes are made. Whether airship, glider, B-1, skydiver, balloon, etc, all are exposed to the inherent risk involved when humans try to defy gravity. Mistakes can obviously be deadly and so there is great incentive to act safely and avoid recklessness. With more (exponential?) drone/RC activity though, we will see a greater imbalance in the inherent risks assumed by those sharing the airspace. Since the technology is new and growing, this imbalance of risks will be one which we have yet to experience. This should be of at least some concern. As someone mentioned, all the long-time hobbyists who pride themselves on safety, standards, and who care about promoting the industry, etc. may not reflect the pool of new entrants whose only barrier to entry was the chunk of cash needed to acquire what is now very advanced and available equipment. First step: let's go see if we can capture some video of our toy up in some IMC! What risk do these guys assume when sharing the airspace from the ground? The loss of their investment? Maybe legal liability? The disparity in consequences is pretty dramatic. I guess I felt more comfortable when most everything in the sky was at least was partially compelled to behave responsibly by the desire to avoid untimely death.
Click to expand...
 
For those of you that think he is not going over 400'...

This picture is of KGAS and the power plant stacks in the upper left are over 1000' AGL. The runway is around 4,000' long. The Ohio River is around 1500' wide. If I was departing runway 23, I could easily hit him on climb out. Here is what he had to say below his FB pic he posted, "This is over 4 miles away from the launch position. Check out the beautiful clouds and shadows they create... breathtaking!" It is only going to get worse considering the cost to fly the real thing vs quad rotors.



 
Is this a genuine concern for safety or jealous/raging because he doesn't follow the make believe AMA rules?
 
tehmightypirate said:
My father was interested in breaking into the aerial photography and aerial videography business recently and was looking to combine his commercial rating in aircraft and a traditional camera setup, with a heavy-duty quad copter and a gimbal mounted HD camera for close up aerial video. I convinced him to call the FAA on it because, even though he's commercially rated, the rules are basically non-existent for drones flown for commercial purposes.

Anyway, long story short, he called around and I believe (super hearsay here) that someone at either the FSDO or AOPA informed him to expect some sort of legal ruling from the FAA within the year on how to go about using drones for commercial purposes. Taking my hearsay one step further to supposition, I suspect that the FAA will also make some sore of firm ruling on when and where these drones can be flown period.

Given that these really are becoming much more prevalent than simple RC aircraft it doesn't surprise me that the FAA is already working on this. I really hope this doesn't hurt the RC hobbiests but it really sounds like it will.

Hah, maybe they'll just required ADS-B out on all RC planes? :p
Click to expand...

An RC hobbiest can do a lot of things. Move into a commercial realm and the aircraft needs an airworthy certificate, registration, and if flying in FPV a safety observer. The FAA has been mandated by congress to figure out a way to incorporate UAS into the national airspace system.

Remember that the primary method of seperation is "see and avoid", pilots are looking for airplanes, J-3 size or larger, or even smaller with some ultralights.

But how is a pilot supposed to see and avoid a quad copter that could fit inside the J-3 cockpit?
 
Find out what frequency his remote is working on and you can have a little fun!
 
dell30rb said:
Lot more birds out there than 'drones'
Click to expand...

Of course we all know that there are birdstrikes. Obviously, sometimes birds are surprised, overtaken or maybe even just fly into an airplane.

My question is whether birds are observed to take evasive action, and if they do, are they better or not better at evasive action than a UAS? Put another way, if you are flying along and encounter a bird and a UAS, is one more likely to detect you and get out of your way?
 
These guys are idiots. I just posted a link of this one on the AOPA Facebook page.. It's only a matter of time :(
 
Mike5250 said:
Find out what frequency his remote is working on and you can have a little fun!
Click to expand...

Good luck. The RC people I know at work are all using spread spectrum radios. That's pseudo random frequency hopping. They don't even worry about using the same channel anymore, and I've seen at least three of them flying simultaneously at lunch. Jamming would be tough (not to mention a violation of FCC rules). And, no, I don't think these guys go even as high as 400 AGL, they pretty well keep below the surrounding evergreen trees. One is a fellow pilot, so I know he has skin in the game.
 
Ghery said:
Good luck. The RC people I know at work are all using spread spectrum radios. That's pseudo random frequency hopping. They don't even worry about using the same channel anymore, and I've seen at least three of them flying simultaneously at lunch. Jamming would be tough (not to mention a violation of FCC rules). And, no, I don't think these guys go even as high as 400 AGL, they pretty well keep below the surrounding evergreen trees. One is a fellow pilot, so I know he has skin in the game.
Click to expand...

Your co-workers may stay below 400', but many don't. Click on the above fb link, then the pic. Scroll to the right through the pics and you'll see a few well above 400'.
 
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