Dragging it in...

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Kritchlow, Oct 29, 2018.

  1. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Why do I see in almost every video guys dragging it in?

    I can’t say it more concise... 50’ over the threshold to land 1000’ down, gives you a buffer for sheer or other unforeseen circumstance, yet gives you plenty of runway to roll out.
    I realize this may not be wise on every runway, but anything over 3000 feet with most airplanes this is a no brainer.

    I cringe when I see approaches way below the normal slope.
     
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  2. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Because it seems to be drummed into a student’s mind that they MUST land on the threshold.

    But what is your definition of “dragging it in”? My definition is a flatter than normal approach. A normal approach angle to land on the threshold does not meet my definition of “dragging it in”.
     
  3. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Huh, I see more, and thought it was more common to have weekend warriors landing at warp speed and ether floating waaaaay down the runway or trying to force it on.
     
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  4. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Dead Stick! The only way to land. ;)

     
  5. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I try to get STOPPED before the 1000' blocks on almost every landing, not land on them. And I'm above the normal glide slope, not below it, until the last 1/8 mile or so.

    It's a lot more challenging that way...

    The throttle in my right hand is the buffer for sheer.
     
  6. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

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    That works for a 3° glideslope but many don’t fly that. Just from reading here, my guess is a lot of people would describe a 3°GP as dragging it in.
     
  7. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    To me? Dragging it in implies being behind the power curve and hanging on the prop. It's a common STOL technique. I prefer steeper and managing speed with attitude rather than power. I think what the OP is talking about is shallow and fast. That's probably how guys are taught, or just bad habits they picked up while flying big patterns to big runways.
     
  8. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude

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    Nah, just shallow usually just behind the power curve or barely in front of it.

    Tim

    Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
     
  9. texasclouds

    texasclouds Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I tend to turn final at 800 agl and elevator ride to the numbers.
     
  10. tawood

    tawood Pattern Altitude

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    Where I hangar, there's an old timer with a plane just like mine (PA28). We safety pilot for each other, the guy has thousands of hours and is usually a good pilot, but one thing he does that drives me nuts is "dragging it in"...which to me means a very very low angle approach...when I fly with him, I subconsciously find myself lifting my feet up off the floor because he is so low he is just skimming the trees on the approach path, and at our airport there really aren't any trees on the approach path!!! (That's just how low he goes). I said something to him and he responded that I drive him nuts with how high I bring it in...lol. I suppose you could argue that higher would be better if you had an engine out on final, but for the most part, I think its just different technique (who am I to say, with my 700 hours vs his 7000 hours!).
     
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  11. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Line Up and Wait

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    I'm a "chop and drop", steep approach guy, at least in the little planes with lots of flap. I've no interest in flying low and slow except in the wilderness.
     
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  12. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

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    Depends on conditions. If the wind is calm and no turb, I like to see how short of a landing I can accomplish. If it is windy or turbulent, then I'll land far down the runway, especially on longer runway or those with interesting terrain near the threshold.
     
  13. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    Without the videos in question, we are all just guessing what you're talking about. Having recently (in the past year) started filming my flights with gopro's and putting them on youtube, sometimes I get a comment about being low on final or dragging it in. In each of those times, I'm right on the glideslope or papi. The cameras have a way of making things look a bit different than reality. Could be that or the video's you are referencing they are dragging it in for some reason.
     
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  14. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer Pattern Altitude

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    A lot of CFIs teach ridiculously large patterns.
     
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  15. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

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    They're afraid of skid/spin turns on final.
     
  16. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That’s right up there with PIO, I just don’t get how it’s a thing, proper basic fundamentals made it impossible
     
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  17. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

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    I agree, but many CFIs preach big patterns so that no turns in the pattern are greater than standard rate.
     
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  18. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Which actually leads to more stupid, like runway over runs, spins, etc.

    Dumbing things down is never a good idea.

    For example you should see the difference in a normal stall between a guy who got new age FAA pre solo training, and a student who did full stall, falling leaf and full spin training pre solo.
    The reaction to a wing dip is near instant and surgical in the guy with proper training.
     
  19. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

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    So, I was out of the game for a while, and din't fly for about 3 years. Before the layoff, on a BFI my CFI would have me do tight patterns, slow flight with the horn on, real power on/off stalls, stalls in turns, etc. After the layoff, same guy, wouldn't LET me do slow flight, full stalls, tight pattern, etc. It was weird.
     
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  20. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude

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    If I want to drag it in, I'll effing drag it in.

    Unless the little lady complains. Then it might as well be a FAA regulation. sigh....

    kidding, but I do like to practice different kinds of landings. One of my fav's is like mentioned, try to stop before the 1k footers.
    I won't do it at the cost of being overly hard on the plane...even though I do rent :fingerwag:
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
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  21. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Yea I can’t believe the ACS requires slow flight above the stall horn....lameeeeee
     
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  22. tawood

    tawood Pattern Altitude

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    Very lame. I remember my instructor would scold me if the stall horn hesitated or briefly silenced during slow flight.
     
  23. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    Find better instructors. I do FRs with a guy who has me do full flap steep turns at MCA, so if the stall horn is sounding I'm flying too fast. Test standards for a PPL are not limitations for certificated pilots.
     
  24. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Its on the Commercial ACS too...

    "Establish and maintain an airspeed at which any further increase in angle of attack, increase in load factor, or reduction in power, would result in a stall warning (e.g., airplane buffet, stall horn, etc.)."

    Silly...your not even really at MCA at that point? Idk I still practice with the stall horn on, but for the Comm checkride I will be above it and tell the examiner, "look man this is just so lame, can we do it with the stall horn on?"

    Just kidding...I won't do that.
     
  25. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Line Up and Wait

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    It's no issue to stop and turn off in under 1K feet with a steep approach and full flaps. Dragging it in offers little advantage on paved runways.
     
  26. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Depends


    Better to practice with larger margins so you’ll sweat less with tighter margins.

    1k isn’t impressive, most any C208B, PC12, C90, can do that and they are flying a higher vref, almost three times the weight and not nearly as nimble on the controls.
     
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  27. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    Here’s my favorite short landing spot - Runway 23 at Charlotte with the turnoff onto Delta - takes you right to Wilson Air, the best FBO around, without crossing any of the parallels.

    Completely unnecessary since the cross runway(s) have to be clear, and perhaps not always appreciated since the tower seems to have a hard time seeing that corner of the AP. Takes some quick radio work after touchdown to request Delta turnoff.

    (Note that 23 is NOTAM’d closed right now)
    [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
  28. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas En-Route

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    Getting into the habit of landing flat and fast is a poor way to stay prepared for a possible forced landing sometime. If your option becomes a rather small field or short section of highway, you're going to waste it and end up crashing at the end.

    I am a victim of a couple of engine failures, btw. The first one convinced me that flat approaches and floating down the runway is just plain dumb. Besides, it's hard on landing gear components, tires and brakes to touch down at high speeds. It costs the owner more.
     
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  29. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude

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    I don't do it to try and impress anyone. Just like to practice different landings.
     
  30. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    what type airplane and engines on your engine failures?
     
  31. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas En-Route

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    Old airplanes and engines. A Gipsy Major and an A-65. Long time ago. Poor maintenance in both cases.
     
  32. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Depends greatly on what you're flying. My straight tail 182, sure. Other slicker, faster planes, not so much.
     
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  33. idahoflier

    idahoflier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Wow! How slow can you go? ;-)
     
  34. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I'm not @Stewartb but I regularly do this in slow flight, and maintain it. That is...When it's cold enough to not have to worry about overheating the engine. It's a good way to get things warm in the winter!

    [​IMG]
     
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  35. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    Not sure about the videos in question but what I'm seeing a lot of while providing advanced training (most students are commercial certificate holders) is an unwillingness to aim anywhere but the 1000 foot markers, regardless of what kind of landing we are trying to perform. On top of that there seems to be a struggle with hitting their chosen spot. I'd say of the last two dozen guys I've worked with only two of them were above average and both of those guys had some unique flying experience that helped contribute to their skill. I don't think I'm unreasonable. All I really want to see from a student is the ability to make the airplane do what they want it to and land where they say they will.
     
  36. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-Flight

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    in response to the comments on slow flight and stall horn, that's when I realized in training that there is more than one right way to do things. My instructor wanted the horn sounding in slow flight, a chirp was ok. Then on stage check, "why are you letting the stall horn sound? if the horn is sounding something is wrong and you need to fix it"
     
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  37. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    Lots of pilots are uncomfortable with the frightening power off descent rate of a Cessna. ;)
     
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  38. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

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    I agree with James. Far too many pilots take the book airspeed, add five knots for the wife and kids, five knots just in case there might be a gust, and maybe five more just for the hell of it. Then they float forever. Good landings are slow landings...no excess kinetic energy at touchdown!!!

    Bob
     
  39. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I also agree with James. Too much speed yields too much float. I do see that as well.
    But they are still aiming for the threshold, where imo that eats up all your margin for the unexpected, or error.

    Proper speed, proper angle, proper touchdown target is the best recipe in my opinion.
     
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  40. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Line Up and Wait

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    I've had more than one passenger uncomfortable with the deck angle with 40° of barn door!