denverpilot
Tied Down
When does the "Bazinga" post hit this thread? 
Dowsing for water?
- Thread starter TangoWhiskey
- Start date
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
When does the "Bazinga" post hit this thread?
Do I need to video myself doing it?
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write-stuff
En-Route
If you can perform this feat in a scientifically controlled environment, I think you may be able to collect $1,000,000 from James Randi. If you're convinced this really works you should definitely contact him.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
How can you scientifically control an outdoor environment?
And who gives a flying **** about what James Randi thinks?
On second though, who the **** is James Randi?
Congrats on calling members liars though.
Some people have this ability, others do not. I am one of those who do not, however if someone who can do this were to stand behind me and grip my wrists ( hope no one is watching!) then the rods will react. I have known a number of people who can do this stuff.. all of them men. never seen a woman do this.
My Dad and I drilled three wells, all dry. Then I ran across an article on dowsing, made some rods, and gave it a try.
We hit water on the first try. Several years later a friend wanted to give me a 'proper' well since I'd helped him out. Witched that one and almost missed the water. We were looking down the hole by shining the sun down there with a mirror when we saw the water come in on one side of the hole.
In this area you can't just drill anywhere and find water.
We had to locate two natural gas pipelines while putting in two personal lines. The rule is you have to go under existing lines. Have to hand dig to find the high pressure lines as you don't dare touch them with a backhoe.
First one I dug down 6 feet and hit directly on top of the pipe, to the amazement of my helper who was a nonbeliever. Second one I almost missed, finding the pipe in the side of the hole as I widened the bottom out so I could go deeper.
So far the only line I was not able to find was a buried telephone line. I had to locate it underneath one of those double pole highlines.
I don't claim to know how or why this works for me. It's enough to know that it does work, and saves a whole heap of digging in the wrong place.
We hit water on the first try. Several years later a friend wanted to give me a 'proper' well since I'd helped him out. Witched that one and almost missed the water. We were looking down the hole by shining the sun down there with a mirror when we saw the water come in on one side of the hole.
In this area you can't just drill anywhere and find water.
We had to locate two natural gas pipelines while putting in two personal lines. The rule is you have to go under existing lines. Have to hand dig to find the high pressure lines as you don't dare touch them with a backhoe.
First one I dug down 6 feet and hit directly on top of the pipe, to the amazement of my helper who was a nonbeliever. Second one I almost missed, finding the pipe in the side of the hole as I widened the bottom out so I could go deeper.
So far the only line I was not able to find was a buried telephone line. I had to locate it underneath one of those double pole highlines.
I don't claim to know how or why this works for me. It's enough to know that it does work, and saves a whole heap of digging in the wrong place.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Bury a water source in a space with known water distribution.
Surprisingly, most of the scientific community listens to him. He has investigated claims of paranormal activity, which mostly employed slight of hand and other techniques of stage magic. Thus a magician is the best person to debunk them.
He's a seasoned magician who has investigated similar claims of the paranormal. He has a standing million dollar reward to anyone who can prove they have paranormal ability in a controlled experiment. He has yet to give away the money. Personally, I think if our poster is that convinced of his abilities, he should go collect. A million bucks still buys a lot of avgas.
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flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Problem is, how do you prove that dowsing is "paranormal?" It's just not yet been fully explained by the scientific community.
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Exactly! I don't believe I have paranormal capabilities. I am NOT A WITCH!
:wink2:
write-stuff
En-Route
Who cares if you call it "paranormal" or not. If someone will pay you $1 million to demonstrate it, why not do it?
And for the poster saying he didn't give a "hoot" for what James Randi thinks, that's irrelevant. We're talking about his money not his opinion.
And for the poster saying he didn't give a "hoot" for what James Randi thinks, that's irrelevant. We're talking about his money not his opinion.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Doesn't matter. Its magic, ESP, whatever you want to call it. Mysterious juju. Convince the guy you can really do it and it isn't a lot of hooey (which I think it is. I think our OP got lucky, or even remembered where the water was in some deep gooey sticky dark damp part of his brain) and he'll give you $1 million. No lie. And if he tried to welch, you could easily ruin has reputation.
Like I said, he's never had to pay up, and there have been lots of claimants through the years. All kinds of fakes and frauds claiming to be able to do the impossible, like bending spoons and dowsing for water. To put this in context, Joseph Smith made his reputation by dowsing for water and treasure, and used dowsing to find the magic gold tablets etc... He of course parleyed that, and lots of other various secrets into the Mormon Church as it exists today.
Put another way, if you could really reproducibly douse for water, who wouldn't want to splash that over the front pages of the most famous science journals? It suggests novel forces of which science is unaware. It would be a huge splash. The reason it never happens is the reproducible part. Get the dowser to repeat his feat in anything approaching controlled conditions, and the moon isn't right, or there is too many negative vibes in the area, or he can't find the hose you buried because of the giant underground lake a thousand feet below.
It is a truly sad thing that astrologers outnumber astronomer 10 to one in the US. It is really sad that so many of my countrymen are so abjectly stupid. It is very disheartening.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Maybe dowsing only works if you're a Mormon?
Because if he's paying you to prove that you have "Paranormal" powers, and you can do it but you can't prove that it's "paranormal" then he doesn't have to pay up.
I was checking out the Randi challenge and found this:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=41742
My wife has the same ability!
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=41742
My wife has the same ability!
steingar
Taxi to Parking
You don't have to prove its paranormal. You only have to prove that you can find an invisible source of water with a couple rods made of wood, or whatever metal you want. If you really can do it, the researcher studying the phenomenon have found either reproducible magic or a heretofore unknown natural principle. One could make a career out of such a thing.
One could if it existed. However, dousing is just another load of hooey. Don't believe me? Take your favorite dowser to the amazing Randi and collect your million. But you won't collect anything. Because your dowser won't do any better than absolute random chance. Unless he's good enough to fool the Amazing Randi. And that I doubt very, very strongly.
Put up or shut up. And the proof of my pudding that Randi has had this offer for over two decades, and has never had to pay up. Most of these guys are utter charlatans, except for the few mental giants who've convinced themselves they can actually do this nonsense.
Ghery
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Ghery Pettit
About 40 years ago I was working for buildings and grounds at WSU and we had to find a large sprinkler feed line down about 10 feet. The boss came out with a pair of copper rods and said to dig where they crossed. I laughed, so he told me to try it. I did, we dug and found the pipe. I made my own and found conduits in walls, sprinkler pipes, etc. with them. I don't know how or why, but they worked for me.
Maybe dowsing only works if you're a Mormon?
Nope, I'm a Presbyterian.
ron22
Cleared for Takeoff
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Exactly. There is nothing that says this is paranormal. Just like the universe accelerating in its expansion is not paranormal. We just don't have a solid scientific explanation for that, or dark energy/matter, etc.
write-stuff
En-Route
This page http://www.randi.org/library/dowsing/ sure seems to indicate that dowsing claims are acceptable in the $1 million challenge.
I'll tell you what. If I was convinced I could successfully dowse, rather than look for reasons not to apply, I'd be all over this! If you can do it, get a million bucks. It's an extraordinary claim so here's your chance to prove it to the world and become rich and famous at the same time.
I'll tell you what. If I was convinced I could successfully dowse, rather than look for reasons not to apply, I'd be all over this! If you can do it, get a million bucks. It's an extraordinary claim so here's your chance to prove it to the world and become rich and famous at the same time.
write-stuff
En-Route
And for you folks who are successful at dowsing, how about trying this experiment. Instead of holding the tubes in your hands where they can be independently tipped, insert them in a flat board, in holes that are precisely drilled parallel to each other and perpendicular to the wood surface. This will require a drill press.
Next, attach a level to the board. Walk around holding the board (keeping the bubble centered) and see of the rods still swing in opposite directions (i.e. cross each other) when you find the water. Since you have removed the ability to independently tip the holders, this would be a very interesting piece of evidence to support the claim.
Next, attach a level to the board. Walk around holding the board (keeping the bubble centered) and see of the rods still swing in opposite directions (i.e. cross each other) when you find the water. Since you have removed the ability to independently tip the holders, this would be a very interesting piece of evidence to support the claim.
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EdFred
Taxi to Parking
write-stuff
En-Route
I don't think buying the $6 report is a requirement. And even if it was, paying $6 to earn $1 million would be a bargain in anybody's book. For successful dowsers, it's a sure thing, right?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Except that from reading Randi, he has so many "outs" it's a waste of time. I've done the same thing (although less than $1MM), with a whole bunch of ways to weasel out. Trying to satisfy Randi is a waste of time. Look, it's worked for a few people on here. But if you want to go on calling them liars go ahead, but I've met em in person, and trust em.
write-stuff
En-Route
Pretty much, the only way he can "weasel out" as you say is if the dowser is unable to find hidden water beyond what would be expected by random chance.
These double-blind tests have been peformed numerous times and the dowsers never have a success rate greater than that of statistical chance. You'd get the same rate if you just made wild guesses.
These double-blind tests have been peformed numerous times and the dowsers never have a success rate greater than that of statistical chance. You'd get the same rate if you just made wild guesses.
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EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Well the professional water finders have about the same rate, or anecdotally worse, so what's the harm?
Glad to see you like calling members here liars though. Zig Ziglar would be proud.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Steingar has called no one a liar, though that label has been falsely applied by others to his own tales. Indeed, most dowsers are honest, and believe in their own nonsense. Those that have used these things have gotten lucky (or perhaps have numerous but forgotten false positives), or sensed subliminal cues. Humans do it all the time without knowing.
Anyone who really believes they can do this should go collect James Randi's million. Beats selling divining rods on Youtube.
Anyone who really believes they can do this should go collect James Randi's million. Beats selling divining rods on Youtube.
write-stuff
En-Route
Oh, I never said there was harm in it. And in spite of the fact that you've said it three times, I've not called anyone a "liar" either. I've simply suggested some tests to prove the claims and the wonderful benefits to those who succeed. But good job on the straw man argument, though.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Yeah, but I already see how it would play out now, anything less than 100% will be considered a fail, and the person called a charlatan. Hell, we couldn't get a 100% success rate in Chemistry Lab in college, even with the professor assisting/performing, and working with known quantities. (No, we weren't dowsing.)
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Implied it. Semantics.
I went through the forum list of challengers on the JREF site looking for dowser. There were a few applicants in that category but only one that claimed to find water and pipelines. He dropped out for reasons unknown. I think that one lived in Germany, not that that matters.
After reading the official application rules I decided it would be too expensive to apply, especially considering the testing procedure.
Say I claimed to find water, as in a well, at whatever depth. How does one prove that there is water there? The only answer is to drill a well. At whose expense? That test would be prohibitive unless you lived in southeast MO where you can turn over a rock and find water, and any spot is as good as another for a water well.
How about pipelines? Consider why anybody would care where a pipeline is located. Because you plan to dig in that area, is the usual answer. Pipelines tend to be located in a pipeline right of way. The problem is not this vast field of unknowns, but a definite area. Somewhere within this 200' is a pipeline crossing and we don't want to hit it with the backhoe.
Pipeline rights of way are easy to see. Often you can just walk across one and easily see exactly where the line lays. Even if you can't see it, you know it's there, which narrows down the search considerably. Would JREF accept those conditions? I may apply and find out.
Other challengers have been dropped because they wouldn't or couldn't be specific enough for JREF when stating their challenge or in helping design the test. I think I can state my challenge and test specifically enough.
But wait, there's more!
You need to get a doctor or professional engineer to certify by letter that your challenge merits attention, or have independent media publish an article about your skill, or submit a video, even self made, of your proof. In another area of the site they say that a self made video is not proof of anything, so the weaseling is definitely there.
Ever try to get a doctor or other professional to state his opinion in writing about something outside his field, knowing that it will be subject to use and examination by JREF. Ever try to get a doctor to state anything in writing? How about an engineer? I think this part of the challenge would be as difficult as the actual test. Still, if there is no expense involved, I may attempt this. Are there any engineers near me to see a demo and write a letter for the challenge? I will generously split with any participants. One helper = 50/50, and so forth.
My challenge will be that I can find an existing pipeline that was laid to transport oil, natural gas, or water. I can locate said line within four feet laterally. Four feet is a fudge factor, where actually I could say 12 inches. I can do the above on days when the wind is under 5 mph, and there is no powerline overhead.
There should probably be much more thought put into the challenge, including some testing methods that don't involve digging. I've seen pipeline companies that have an electronic dowser device that they use along with orange paint to mark the ground. Wonder if that method would qualify as proof to JREF? I am no longer willing to hand dig six foot deep holes.
After reading the official application rules I decided it would be too expensive to apply, especially considering the testing procedure.
Say I claimed to find water, as in a well, at whatever depth. How does one prove that there is water there? The only answer is to drill a well. At whose expense? That test would be prohibitive unless you lived in southeast MO where you can turn over a rock and find water, and any spot is as good as another for a water well.
How about pipelines? Consider why anybody would care where a pipeline is located. Because you plan to dig in that area, is the usual answer. Pipelines tend to be located in a pipeline right of way. The problem is not this vast field of unknowns, but a definite area. Somewhere within this 200' is a pipeline crossing and we don't want to hit it with the backhoe.
Pipeline rights of way are easy to see. Often you can just walk across one and easily see exactly where the line lays. Even if you can't see it, you know it's there, which narrows down the search considerably. Would JREF accept those conditions? I may apply and find out.
Other challengers have been dropped because they wouldn't or couldn't be specific enough for JREF when stating their challenge or in helping design the test. I think I can state my challenge and test specifically enough.
But wait, there's more!
You need to get a doctor or professional engineer to certify by letter that your challenge merits attention, or have independent media publish an article about your skill, or submit a video, even self made, of your proof. In another area of the site they say that a self made video is not proof of anything, so the weaseling is definitely there.
Ever try to get a doctor or other professional to state his opinion in writing about something outside his field, knowing that it will be subject to use and examination by JREF. Ever try to get a doctor to state anything in writing? How about an engineer? I think this part of the challenge would be as difficult as the actual test. Still, if there is no expense involved, I may attempt this. Are there any engineers near me to see a demo and write a letter for the challenge? I will generously split with any participants. One helper = 50/50, and so forth.
My challenge will be that I can find an existing pipeline that was laid to transport oil, natural gas, or water. I can locate said line within four feet laterally. Four feet is a fudge factor, where actually I could say 12 inches. I can do the above on days when the wind is under 5 mph, and there is no powerline overhead.
There should probably be much more thought put into the challenge, including some testing methods that don't involve digging. I've seen pipeline companies that have an electronic dowser device that they use along with orange paint to mark the ground. Wonder if that method would qualify as proof to JREF? I am no longer willing to hand dig six foot deep holes.
JREF states that 3 out of 4 is not good enough, but that 8 out of 10 is good enough. That's not a huge difference, but it seems that you can't just show up and do it once.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Nothing magical there. When they bury a natural gas pipeline, for example, there's a wire attached to it so they can easily find it later.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Nice to see someone thinking in the abstract. How about I have someone bury a water source at a location known only to them. They hide their tracks, or make false ones, or do something so that the buried source isn't readily visible. Price? Probably nothing, since water is free and it could be your buddy doing the burying.
You bring out the idiot, er, dowser, and let him have at it. If you like you can have your buddy bury several water sources, lets see if the dowser can divine them all.
But to the dowser, there is always something wrong when it doesn't work, and it is always too difficult to test. Yeah, right.
You're telling me that someone should give you a cool million because you can see pipeline right of way? No way! I want it done by divining, or rods, or magic! Not simple common sense. Dowsers don't use that!
In other words, they couldn't find an unknown water source in a strange field only by divination. But wait! That's what they're claiming to be able to do! Like the videos say, you just pass over a water source and the rods cross. Or maybe is just isn't so simple.
I guarantee you if you go to an engineering school and propose such a test, you'll get someone to set it up and witness it. Yes, you'll have to fund it, but the price is a lot less than $1 million. Heck, you can even fool the engineering professors, we scientists are a gullible lot. Look up Yuri Geller if you don't believe me.
No doubt you can by looking at the lay of the land, and I wouldn't take that bet. But I'll bet money that if I buried a tank of water in a field and covered by tracks properly, you couldn't find squat.
It isn't much of a challenge to those with an IQ in the triple digits. Yeah, oil companies have guys who find oil for them, but they use Geology and Earth Sciences, not sticks and magic.
gkainz
Final Approach
I watched my granddad dowse our property for a prospective well. We put a paint spot on a rock face down on his spot. He then had a neighbor come over who was known as the local dowser and he located the same spot (on a 5 acre parcel). We drilled and hit good water at the spot he marked, and the depth he indicated.
I borrowed his rods and got nothing, even walking down to the creek and crossing over it on a downed log.
I borrowed his rods and got nothing, even walking down to the creek and crossing over it on a downed log.
I never claimed magic, or paranormal. I'm not sure what you mean by 'bury a water source, but if you buried a tank of water I could find it in some reasonable sized area.
You are quite passionate about something you've never tried and have resorted to name calling to get your point across. "Idiot" in this post, and "mental giant" in another.
You and your opinions have about the same effect on me as when the Baptists tell me I'm going to hell for dancing on Sunday. That is to say, none.
I'll bet you use the word "horizon" when you try to describe a stall recovery.
I know, I know, I enjoy poking Christians with a sharp stick too.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I never claimed magic, or paranormal. I'm not sure what you mean by 'bury a water source, but if you buried a tank of water I could find it in some reasonable sized area.
You are quite passionate about something you've never tried and have resorted to name calling to get your point across. "Idiot" in this post, and "mental giant" in another.
You and your opinions have about the same effect on me as when the Baptists tell me I'm going to hell for dancing on Sunday. That is to say, none.
I'll bet you use the word "horizon" when you try to describe a stall recovery.
Its a bet then. Any amount of money, it doesn't matter. I'll win. I hide a water source, you won't find it with a couple sticks, or rods, or whatever. And when you don't, you'll make up some fool excuse like "the planets weren't right", or "there's too much negative energy" or "there's a giant underground river" or something similar. That's what always happens when people with mysterious folk wizardry do their stuff and fail under controlled conditions.
Indeed, show up to 6Y9 and we'll set up the test right there. We'll video it, and show it right here. Now's your big chance to prove yourself and make me eat crow. heck, I'll even write your letter to James Randi. I have academic credentials, and I've done stage magic, so I'll have credibility in his eyes. Here's your chance to win a million bucks and forever silence your critics. Seriously, you get this past him and you'll have your 15 minutes of fame.
Now. Put up or shut up.
You're here predicting the future and you accuse me of wizardry?
I've never made those excuses. I either got my shovel and started digging or admitted to myself that I couldn't find it. I never dug in vain, but that's just a story with no proof.
I don't care about your lunch menu. Eat what you want when you want. I have critics in several fields and I don't care what they have to say either. Well maybe I do just a teeny bit. It rankles a bit to be called an idiot and if I had the opportunity I'd think a strong F word in your direction, but beyond that I don't care.
I'm happy to make an in person demo, but I'll be damned if I'm going to Michigan for any reason. Maybe if you came and held a gun on me I'd consider going to Michigan, but otherwise no.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
The Upper Peninsula is actually quite nice.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Keep spinning it. Every time you get someone with "mysterious" abilities and try to do a real test, there's nothing but excuses. "I won't go to Michigan for anything!" Yeah, right. No doubt there'll be too much water in the air or something in Michigan when you fail.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
If someone wants to bring divining rods, I know a good spot we can go out and try it. (a decent sized sandy area just west of town) I have never done it, so I'm interested to see if I even feel anything. We can bury a 5 gallon pail of water in the sand, rake the crap out of the area so we can't tell where and we will see what happens. Maybe even have a few people take a shot at it and see what turns out.