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Jeff6969

Filing Flight Plan
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Jeff6969
Ok, I know nothing about planes or jets. I just happened to come a cross a web site with small planes and jets for sale. I saw some small jets for sale as low as $300,000 - $500,000. So my question is, this seems really cheap to me. Are these small jets ready to fly at this price? Or would you have to dump a bunch of money into them to make them air worthy, legal to fly?

Thank you. Jeff6969
 
Jeff6969 said:
Ok, I know nothing about planes or jets. I just happened to come a cross a web site with small planes and jets for sale. I saw some small jets for sale as low as $300,000 - $500,000. So my question is, this seems really cheap to me. Are these small jets ready to fly at this price? Or would you have to dump a bunch of money into them to make them air worthy, legal to fly?

Thank you. Jeff6969
Click to expand...

Jeff, jets are very expensive. If you see a really cheap one, probably one of the following pertains:

There are several mandatory maintenance items on some jets. Engine hot section inspections are but one of those. After so many hours you have to do these inspections and they can cost $$$.

RVSM compliance. (RVSM = Reduced Vertical Separation Minimums) Recent regulation changes require an upgrade in equipment to permit the plane to fly in the upper flight levels, which is where you want to fly a jet ('cause it is less expensive to cruise up there, as well as the jet goes faster). Converting an old jet to RSVM compliance is very expensive.

Bottom line... there is rarely a free lunch in buying a jet. If you are really considering a purchase, you need a knowledgeable buyer's agent to represent you. Good luck! -Skip
 
The jets you see in this price range are mostly the very early bizjets like the original LearJets from the 1960's which nobody wants any more, mainly because they are "gas guzzlers", but also because they are getting very old and, like an old car, that runs up the maintenance bills. So, unless they were old wrecks lying around, you wouldn't have to dump a lot of money into them to make them legal, but the operating expenses to actually fly them (primarily fuel and maintenance) would be staggering -- which is why nobody wants them, and that's why the prices are low.
 
With a jet the maintenance costs can quickly surpass those low purchase prices. Even a pair of used mid time engines can equal or exceed that installed. There are also cycle limits on airframe components as well which can be interestingly expensive. Many of the early biz jets are also now noise restricted at some airports.
 
The airplane pricing market is very efficient. Highly informed buyers, readily available market information, clear understandings of operating costs.....

It's hard to sell above "market"

When those "cheap" jets are compared to others with higher acquisition costs (but lower operating costs or no pending major required events (aka "Airworthiness Directives"), things start to balance out. In many cases, those older jets become little more than parts donors. Once the potential recipients are also heavily discounted, all that is left is donors and no recipients.

I'd say that, in some respects, "depreciation" is a real and tangible thing with business jets. I don't know if I necessarily agree with the "schedules" (GAAP nor Gov't "adjusted" ones), but they are eventually worth only scrap.

I suppose there may be some opps to move those old jets to other countries, but I don't know much about that.
 
Old jets are great, if you like constant lengthy downtimes due to corrosion repairs, unavailable and salvage parts, crazy high fuel burns, outdated and inop radios such as radars, gyros, autopilot quirks, etc.


We haven't even talked about buying insurance yet.

$12k for 1 of 2 main ship batteries :vomit:

Heck the main battery for a Cessna 510 (mustang) is $2500
 
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Henning said:
With a jet the maintenance costs can quickly surpass those low purchase prices. Even a pair of used mid time engines can equal or exceed that installed. There are also cycle limits on airframe components as well which can be interestingly expensive. Many of the early biz jets are also now noise restricted at some airports.
Click to expand...
Airframes for older planes have become essentially "free."
 
Lot's of good older Citation I's and II's are "cheap" good I's are under $500K, when I say good, I mean low time engines or fresh hot sections, decent paint and interior and some have upgraded avionics. I'd say you could buy a late 70's Citation I/SP for $400K with fresh inspections and fly it for the cost of fuel for the next 12-18 months until the next phase inspections are due. :D BUT, then the fun wears off.:mad2: 1-4 inspections are $10K plus squawks and jets that are nearly 40 years old have expensive squawks!:yikes:
They burn a lot of fuel, I's will burn 175 gallons the first hour and 120-130 or so the second hour IIRC. ;) I planned 200 gallons the first hour and 160 in my II, that was pretty close.
Lots of old systems, that while reliable, are very expensive when they break. :eek:
http://www.controller.com/listingsd...TION-ISP/1979-CESSNA-CITATION-ISP/1305227.htm
http://www.controller.com/listingsd...TION-ISP/1977-CESSNA-CITATION-ISP/1249045.htm
 
Thank You everyone for the replies. Seems like the purchase price is just the start! That's kinda what I was thinking. I think everyone dreams of owning a plane or jet at some point in their life. We all dream of flying with the birds. One more question, how long would it take for someone with NO experience at all to learn how to fly one of those type of jets?...Are these jets safe being that old? Don't want to put my family in a death trap.
 
If you want insurance, a long time.

Actually, a long time either way. 99% of the time, you need to start with a piston and work your way up. Although, if you have the time (ie train 40 hours a week) and $$$, I'm sure you could be flying single pilot jet in a year or two.

Lots of those older jets require a co-pilot though.

As far as safety, I'd say the biggest risk in a well-maintained older jet would be pilot skill, staying "ahead of the plane", and being able to _properly_ handle any failures. There is enough redundancy that in most cases, a properly trained pilot should be able to land it safely if something were to happen. You're not going to be one of those guys right out of the gate though. After training, your insurance company would want you to take a "mentor pilot" along for a while. This is a good idea from a safety perspective as well.
 
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N747JB said:
Lot's of good older Citation I's and II's are "cheap" good I's are under $500K, when I say good, I mean low time engines or fresh hot sections, decent paint and interior and some have upgraded avionics. I'd say you could buy a late 70's Citation I/SP for $400K with fresh inspections and fly it for the cost of fuel for the next 12-18 months until the next phase inspections are due. :D BUT, then the fun wears off.:mad2: 1-4 inspections are $10K plus squawks and jets that are nearly 40 years old have expensive squawks!:yikes:
They burn a lot of fuel, I's will burn 175 gallons the first hour and 120-130 or so the second hour IIRC. ;) I planned 200 gallons the first hour and 160 in my II, that was pretty close.
Lots of old systems, that while reliable, are very expensive when they break. :eek:
http://www.controller.com/listingsd...TION-ISP/1979-CESSNA-CITATION-ISP/1305227.htm
http://www.controller.com/listingsd...TION-ISP/1977-CESSNA-CITATION-ISP/1249045.htm
Click to expand...

Sure you can fly them for the price of fuel for the next 12-18 months, but don't forget about insurance, hangar rent and are you rated in the type of jet or are you going to have to pay someone else to fly it. Only a few of the smaller jets are approved for a single pilot, the vast majority require 2 pilots with their associated salaries. Once you have your appropriate ratings and hours you still need to go to school for the individual Type rating, that can cost around $12,000-15,000 depending on the plane, that's only for one pilot. Then there are always the little things that crop up from time to time throughout the year, all that adds up.

There are lots of older jets still flying around on a day to day basis, the one I fly for work is 31 years old. That doesn't make them a death trap. All jets require some regular maintenance, you can't just let things go if you intend to fly them. Sometimes parts for the older jets are hard to come by or very expensive.
For the most part, these corporate jets are business tools. You either have loads of money to sink down a huge hole so someone can fly you around on vacations, or you use them in the furtherance of your business.

Hope this answers a few of your questions.
 
I'm typed, so the pilot part didn't occur to me.:D But, I was mainly speaking of operational costs, obviously hangar, recurrent training, and insurance are costs for any airplane. And they are part of the reason I paid more for a 425 than I could have spent on another Citation. :D
Those little $10K surprises that seem to pop up from time to time on jets will keep you awake at night if you are flying for yourself and paying your own bills! :mad2:
I know they happen on turbo props too, but they seem less frequent and less costly............................so far. :rolleyes:


champ driver said:
Sure you can fly them for the price of fuel for the next 12-18 months, but don't forget about insurance, hangar rent and are you rated in the type of jet or are you going to have to pay someone else to fly it. Only a few of the smaller jets are approved for a single pilot, the vast majority require 2 pilots with their associated salaries. Once you have your appropriate ratings and hours you still need to go to school for the individual Type rating, that can cost around $12,000-15,000 depending on the plane, that's only for one pilot. Then there are always the little things that crop up from time to time throughout the year, all that adds up.

There are lots of older jets still flying around on a day to day basis, the one I fly for work is 31 years old. That doesn't make them a death trap. All jets require some regular maintenance, you can't just let things go if you intend to fly them. Sometimes parts for the older jets are hard to come by or very expensive.
For the most part, these corporate jets are business tools. You either have loads of money to sink down a huge hole so someone can fly you around on vacations, or you use them in the furtherance of your business.

Hope this answers a few of your questions.
Click to expand...
 
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