Does US GA need more "legacy" (especially tube and fabric) A&Ps?

Taylor Not Swift

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That girl in the L-2.
I am in the upper Midwest, and am looking into the potential future for GA A&P mechanics (especially those with IA). Anecdotally, it seems that the pool is dwindling faster than it is being replenished.
 
You said “anecdotally”, so I’ll use the same standard: Can someone tell you if the result is increased demand and/or increased pay (and job security)? Are GA planes backlogged for maintenance and/or A&P/IAs working overtime? Or is work currently steady or pay the same - which means that “dwindling” workforce comes with dwindling GA maintenance?
 
Tube and fabric airplanes are also dwindling.

Over the next decade, MOSAIC has the potential to change things. Why buy an ancient 172 and pay an A&P to nurse it along, when you can get a new LS aircraft with better performance and maintain it yourself with an LSRM course?

The trend is clear. A&P's and repair shops will focus on professional-grade aircraft, while recreational bug smashers will service our own, with assistance as needed.

eVTOL has the potential to shake things up too. If that market emerges, it will require a new breed of A&P's with specialized knowledge.

Exciting times.
 
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You said “anecdotally”, so I’ll use the same standard: Can someone tell you if the result is increased demand and/or increased pay (and job security)? Are GA planes backlogged for maintenance and/or A&P/IAs working overtime? Or is work currently steady or pay the same - which means that “dwindling” workforce comes with dwindling GA maintenance?
Here, in the Upper Midwest, there is plenty of work for IAs who inspect and work on GA aircraft. And not surprisingly their fees are outpacing inflation, their waiting lists are growing, or they are hiring more help (this is my involvement). Or, in many cases, a combination of all three. But, it is incredibly hard for me to measure what is happening in the Mountain West, West Coast, Gulf Coast, or East Coast.

Right now, I would not want to leave the geographical area I grew up in. But I would certainly be at a disadvantage if any experienced A&Ps relocated here because of dwindling demand elsewhere.

The IA whom I am answering messages and writing up orders for has spoken to me about what he sees as the opportunities and how I could fulfill the requirements to earn an A&P certificate. His airframe business is mostly tube and fabric with a few wooden structures in the mix, something that he sees as being in particularly short supply.
 
Most of the stuff I have seen posted show a shortage of A&P or IAs.
Although there is a general decline in GA, the commentary is the mechanic shortage is dwindling faster that the GA fleet.
How will MOSIAC affect all this, is still unknown, but there is lots of speculation.

Tim
 
Tube and fabric airplanes are also dwindling.

Over the next decade, MOSAIC has the potential to change things. Why buy an ancient 172 and pay an A&P to nurse it along, when you can get a new LS aircraft with better performance and maintain it yourself with an LSRM course?
I should read the final draft of MOSAIC.

The IA I am working for thinks that any airplane built after he was born is a "new" airplane. In the past year he has bought two aircraft that, in combination, were 157 years old, and eight years out of annual. He paid $36,000 or so for them and sank a like amount into getting them legal. But, he thinks they are worth twice what he has invested. I'm in no position to know, but I see less than pristine Ercoupes listed for sale at $35,000, gorgeous J-3s listed at $80,000, and Stinsons for $100,000 - $125,000.
The trend is clear. A&P's and repair shops will focus on professional-grade aircraft, while recreational bug smashers will service our own, with assistance as needed.
It is always interesting to hear a different perspective and from someone in a different locality. We don't have many "new" GA airplanes around here. Maybe that will change with MOSAIC. There are several Experimentals, and there is a saying that everything costs the same, the only difference is how you pay for it. I have seen videos of some of the European LSAs, and for those who can afford it, having a nice new Rotax powered fiberglass airplane is certainly sexier than having a mid 60s 172 with scruffed paint, holes in the panel, remnant carpet squares, and generic seat covers.
 
I am in the upper Midwest, and am looking into the potential future for GA A&P mechanics (especially those with IA). Anecdotally, it seems that the pool is dwindling faster than it is being replenished.

A&P and -IA are skillsets. I sense the question you are asking is whether the market for those skills in a niche corner of the industry is sustainable.

A better question to ask is this: what do you want the future you to be doing/have done that will be your measure of success?
 
If you like airplanes, mechanical repairs, and/or regulatory-administrative-compliance type stuff, and you see an opportunity, go for it.

As an older person coming from the manufacturing industry, and experience with 18 or so plant closures, and a half-dozen merger/acquistion/consolidations (“redundancy terminations”), I don’t think you’ll have anything to worry about as far as other region A&P/IAs moving into your territory. As people age, they are less likely to move for work. From what I saw it was less than 5%. Probably not enough to move the needle.
 
The IA whom I am answering messages and writing up orders for has spoken to me about what he sees as the opportunities and how I could fulfill the requirements to earn an A&P certificate. His airframe business is mostly tube and fabric with a few wooden structures in the mix, something that he sees as being in particularly short supply.
If becoming an A&P is really what you want to do, you're sitting on a goldmine opportunity with this situation. Is your intent to work for this IA? See if the IA knows any of the local airworthiness ASIs at the FSDO and see what they will accept to issue your 8610s to take your mechanic certificate tests. Sometimes in "remote" areas they tend to be a bit more open to the process. In the meantime you can start studying aircraft maintenance guidance either free options or paid versions, etc., etc.
 
eVTOL has the potential to shake things up too. If that market emerges, it will require a new breed of A&P's with specialized knowledge.
The eVTOLs and similar will probably follow the repairman route like LSA for various reasons. While A&Ps will still be needed and required for FAA and ICAO requirements, eventually in the distant future I think there will be a global rewrite of a lot of rules to include mx ones.
 
I am in the upper Midwest, and am looking into the potential future for GA A&P mechanics (especially those with IA). Anecdotally, it seems that the pool is dwindling faster than it is being replenished.
I think more specifically your concern is AP-IAs, annuals and wood spars.
 
The trend is clear. A&P's and repair shops will focus on professional-grade aircraft, while recreational bug smashers will service our own, with assistance as needed.
The ability for owners to maintain aircraft is increasing, but I’d bet that the portion that do their own maintenance won’t increase much.
 
but I’d bet that the portion that do their own maintenance won’t increase much.
In my region that portion has been declining for the past 20 years. On average, only about 30-40% of owners perform any work with only a small portion that perform all work possible per prevent mx. While I think you may see an increase in owners performing their condition inspections on E/AB, I don't think there will be a marked difference overall. I also saw this in my owner assist group and how the interest started to taper off after 2008-09.
 
My son will graduate aircraft’s technician school this spring with his A&P. He’ll have an opportunity to work at a shop that will assist in him getting his IA. Needless to say, I'm highly encouraging this route. There is ample opportunity to work GA as as supplement to his day job. I think he’ll make a very comfortable living, especially given he will graduate debt free.
 
...He’ll have an opportunity to work at a shop that will assist in him getting his IA...

All that is required to get an IA is to be an A&P for 3 years and take a test. The test is mainly to see if you can read an AD and figure out what it says. It does include some questions on regulations as well as W&B stuff but it's an open book exam.
 
If becoming an A&P is really what you want to do, you're sitting on a goldmine opportunity with this situation. Is your intent to work for this IA? See if the IA knows any of the local airworthiness ASIs at the FSDO and see what they will accept to issue your 8610s to take your mechanic certificate tests. Sometimes in "remote" areas they tend to be a bit more open to the process. In the meantime you can start studying aircraft maintenance guidance either free options or paid versions, etc., etc.
Yes, his offer was that I work with him, and stated that he could help me get my tests set up after the requisite 30-months of apprenticeship. Not surprisingly, he has a substantial library pertaining to his vocation. He suggested that I start by reading his copy of AC 43.13-1B.
 
When the “ shortage of A & P ‘s is brought up it is often really about who is
willing to forego things like medical coverage and retirement. Young people
decide what is best for them and their family. Airlines , corporate and other
activities can offer much better careers than Tripacers and 172’s. So the
lighter end of GA seems to attract entry level, part-time and retirement
opportunities.


With the demise of many Part 147 Schools a lot of folks opt for the
FAR 65.77 or mentorship route. This can work very well but it’s not without
pitfalls. Having you study during the hands- on is perfect. FAR 65 & 43 can
provide sleep material too.


1.Keep in mind that it is FAA and not your mentor that determines when
you’re “ready”. It is actual time spent on the activity;:not just the
“ hands-on” or “ what should it take”.

2. Maintaining the Log of your activities is your responsibility. Make
appropriate entries and have the mentor sign at each intervals of about
1 week.

3. DO NOT wait 30 months for some Magic Letter for the FAA. Too many of
these arrangements fall apart and leave you with nothing.
 
He suggested that I start by reading his copy of AC 43.13-1B.
There are a number of other reference items to study as well to include the all the handbooks to include the general, airframe, and powerplant below.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/amtg_handbook.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol..._Aviation_Maintenance_Technician_Handbook.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/amt_powerplant_handbook.pdf
 
And not surprisingly their fees are outpacing inflation
Inflation is ~3%

This is mostly AnPs being good mechanics but horrible businessmen.

Wood and fabric work isn't hard. It's just no one wants to do it for reasons. Sheet metal work requires multiple bucking bars and rivet sets/pullers/drill bits, very expensive air tools and shop air. Wood requires a saw and clamps. Fabric requires a fancy pair of scissors and a heat gun/iron.
 
The amount of wood and fabric info is sparse. OP was asking about tube/wood/fabric. Back when the EAA was about building planes they made a lot of good wood and fabric books.

Also the AMT handbook goes off on WILD tangents. No one needs to know that much about transistors and magnets.
 
My son will graduate aircraft’s technician school this spring with his A&P. He’ll have an opportunity to work at a shop that will assist in him getting his IA. Needless to say, I'm highly encouraging this route. There is ample opportunity to work GA as as supplement to his day job. I think he’ll make a very comfortable living, especially given he will graduate debt free.
Not in GA.

You want to make money? Go to the airlines and if you want to make obscene money go AoG specialist.

Go GA if you really really like GA and you want to deal with people.

I saved more in flight benefits this year than a guy in GA would make in 6 months.
 
Inflation is ~3%

This is mostly AnPs being good mechanics but horrible businessmen.

Wood and fabric work isn't hard. It's just no one wants to do it for reasons. Sheet metal work requires multiple bucking bars and rivet sets/pullers/drill bits, very expensive air tools and shop air. Wood requires a saw and clamps. Fabric requires a fancy pair of scissors and a heat gun/iron.

Curious, how much fabric work have you actually done? Which processes?

I can speak from experience after doing several complete restorations and using different processes. If you think recovering only requires a “fancy” pair of scissors and a heat gun, that’s laughable.

You are aware the entire aircraft has to be disassemble, inspected and repaired where necessary. That alone takes many tools.

Cleaning, painting parts is another job and replacing worn out parts (cables, pulleys, fairleads, etc)

My last restoration was just above 1,000 hours of labor.

Another thing about fabric is it takes skill. Learning that skill from someone else is invaluable. Straight stitch lines, straight tape lines take practice. Rib stitching takes patience and time to come out looking right.

Oh, then the aircraft needs to be reassembled. This will involve rigging the wings and the control surfaces. Engine installation, prop installation, fuel tank plumbing, rigging engine controls, etc.
 
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Not in GA.

You want to make money? Go to the airlines and if you want to make obscene money go AoG specialist.

Go GA if you really really like GA and you want to deal with people.

I saved more in flight benefits this year than a guy in GA would make in 6 months.

GA covers corporate aviation as well. There are A&P’s on the corporate side making money that equals if not exceeds the airline side.
 
Also the AMT handbook goes off on WILD tangents. No one needs to know that much about transistors and magnets.
Except the handbooks are written to provide the knowledge requirements per the Airmen Certification Standards (ACS) in order to take and pass the mechanic tests. And you'll find transistors and magnets are part of those standards so hardly a wild tangent.

So if a person is not attending a Part 147 school and pursuing the Part 65.77 route toward their obtaining their A&P certificates using and studying those handbooks will give them the best foundation to pass those tests.

And for those interested there is an ACS Companion Guide to go with the ACS link above.
 
When the “ shortage of A & P ‘s is brought up it is often really about who is
willing to forego things like medical coverage and retirement.
Keep in mind that there are alternatives to employer-sponsored health coverage and retirement programs. They take a little more effort, but in our case we’ve been much happier after giving up my employer’s health insurance program.
 
For the most part, tube and fabric work is a labor of love - unless your pockets are very deep, or the plane is yours and you are qualified/capable to do the work, it's almost impossible to bill the true hours involved with a recover job for example.

This is somewhat true for other jobs - getting access to your broken whatever three layers deep on the accessory case of an STC turbo'd aircraft takes a long time going in and going out. But the owner sees the four mounting studs and may recoil at the two hours of work to get to those studs. And so on. And that assumes nothing broken or unairworthy was found during the process.

Just had a repair job performed on my car - 13.5 hours of labor - $230/hr. Yet people baulk at $120-140/hr for their aircraft. Granted most of the stuff is less rusty on an aircraft. But of course with cars the repairs are often insurance covered, so the owner is somewhat insulated from the hourly rate.

Competent GA shops around where I am are booked solid - one plane goes out and the next one comes in for annual. Plus repairs squeezed in between. Mosaic still requires annuals on previously certificated aircraft. Don't see how the rules will make new ones, potentially owner maintainable, any cheaper in a world where the supposedly cheap LSA ended up at 100-250k anyhow.
 
Keep in mind that there are alternatives to employer-sponsored health coverage and retirement programs. They take a little more effort, but in our case we’ve been much happier after giving up my employer’s health insurance program.
In many areas of the Midwest, a single corporate healthcare entity owns all of the hospitals, clinics, and non-boutique practices in a geographic area. Making the co-pays the only difference between the different health plans available. And as stated, you can buy your own and take the tax-break that would otherwise go to an employer.
 
Competent GA shops around where I am are booked solid - one plane goes out and the next one comes in for annual. Plus repairs squeezed in between. Mosaic still requires annuals on previously certificated aircraft. Don't see how the rules will make new ones, potentially owner maintainable, any cheaper in a world where the supposedly cheap LSA ended up at 100-250k anyhow.
That is the situation here. My employer is booked solid for months and I am making appointment dates years out.
 
For the most part, tube and fabric work is a labor of love - unless your pockets are very deep, or the plane is yours and you are qualified/capable to do the work, it's almost impossible to bill the true hours involved with a recover job for example.
And to add, because this type of work is so labor intensive it can be very difficult to run it as a business. Same can be said for heavy sheet metal work. However, if one is an expert at with a solid backlog, you can make a good living at it. But those are now few and far between.
 
And to add, because this type of work is so labor intensive it can be very difficult to run it as a business. Same can be said for heavy sheet metal work. However, if one is an expert at with a solid backlog, you can make a good living at it. But those are now few and far between.

Q: with the proliferation of E-AB cubs, do you see a market opportunity for a builder assistance service re: covering or recovering them?
 
And to add, because this type of work is so labor intensive it can be very difficult to run it as a business. Same can be said for heavy sheet metal work. However, if one is an expert at with a solid backlog, you can make a good living at it. But those are now few and far between.
The sheet metal gurus at the top of their game can make a living as expensive metal planes get bent and then fully repaired. However, may need to live away from home for months at a time for some repairs.

Recovering as a business would require an A&P preferably with an IA (major repair) to focus only on that activity.

@TCABM - not sure which E-AB Cubs you refer to - the current ones out there, or new crop of aircraft coming out. Either way, with a 20-30 year lifetime for polyester coverings, most recovers I would assume would be in conjunction with damage (for existing aircraft). It's not that hard, but it takes time to set up, and then you can only do so much per day given the glues and chemistry involved.
 
It's not that hard, but it takes time to set up, and then you can only do so much per day given the glues and chemistry involved.

While it's not that hard, it does take skill, and that skill takes time to learn and practice to get it right. Complex curves in fabric can be tricky and there are a few on something like a cub. Plus stitching and tape lines. The final spray coats take time to set up. But all of that is slow tedious work especially if someone is wanting a quality finish.
 
Q: with the proliferation of E-AB cubs, do you see a market opportunity for a builder assistance service re: covering or recovering them?
No idea. But fabric work is not really a technical skill but more a craftman skill if that makes sense. So I've found a lot more people are very capable of performing that work on their own vs sheetmetal work. So unless one had a captured market I wouldnt think it could be self-supportive on its own. Now include it with other services under LSR-M ticket and maybe you could develop something.

The sheet metal gurus at the top of their game can make a living as expensive metal planes get bent and then fully repaired.
True. But from my experience with both, to specialize in either requires some specific business financials otherwise you run out of operating captial due to the low volume of work through the shop. I've tried it but didnt have client infrastructure to make it work properly.
 
What GA needs is simple…

APs who can do what they advertise, and treat customers like customers should be treated… even if they’re buttheads (edit: see post below, because they ARE, that’s a given).

They will make money.

They can keep the money if they know how to run a business.

This ain’t unique.
 
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What GA needs is simple…

APs who can do what they advertise, and treat customers like customers should be treated… even if they’re buttheads.

They will make money.

They can keep the money if they know how to run a business.

This ain’t unique.

I've known a few that did just that.

But they spent a lot of time trying to collect money from people who felt their hobby shouldn't cost this much. Then the arguments over what the estimated cost would be and the "well can't you just skip that part" to keep the bill down. Airworthiness be damned.

Then you have the ones that just bought their "dream airplane" and bring it in for the first annual only to find out everything the previous owners neglected, and the ensuing arguments and teeth gnashing sprinkled with hints of how greedy the shop is being.

A shop near me works on everything from war birds to large corporate jets. Top quality. The owner has been there for years and has many return customers. He has told me many stories of owners showing up and then storming out when the estimate is given on the work required. He doesn't budge and he refuses to do subpar work. But in today's GA market he is a rarity.
 
Hehe, didn’t say it was easy, just simple… maybe parsing words.

That solidly falls under “how to run a business”. Saying “no” to a customer is a skill. Basically new topic, but it involves NEVER saying no (to what you advertise). Say “yes” for this much (time and money) and DONT BUDGE. Period. Then you GOTTA produce. Period. Sounds like the rare shop near you.

Say no and/or don’t produce, you’re doomed.
 
This ain’t unique.
Its not. There are still many mechanics out there that still offer that and more. But people dont post or talk about those guys. They only post about the supposed "bad" mechanics. And in half of those posts its only one side of the story which may not have all the facts.

But what is unique is the lack of new mechanics to replace the retiring ones. And in that void you get marginal ones that treat people like sheet or sign off stuff they shouldnt, etc. Supply and demand at its finest considering some owners seek out these type mechanics.
 
In many areas of the Midwest, a single corporate healthcare entity owns all of the hospitals, clinics, and non-boutique practices in a geographic area. Making the co-pays the only difference between the different health plans available. And as stated, you can buy your own and take the tax-break that would otherwise go to an employer.
We participate in one of the Christian sharing plans…the differences are more significant.
 
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