Does the military spoof ADS-B info?

EdFred

EdFred

Taxi to Parking
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Messages
30,212
Location
Michigan
Display Name
Display name:
White Chocolate
So I'm flying through Georgia yesterday, no flight following, but monitoring 121.5.

I'm "blistering" along northbound at 130-140ish knots GS into a 20kt headwind and approaching the neighborhood of VR-97 and VR-1059 (NW of HQU) when I get an ADS-B target ahead of me and to the east of my flight path. It shows as a CAP plane (and I can't remember the flight number) with a GS of around 110-120 kts. It shows as normal with the arrow indicating flight direction and it seemed to be maneuvering about 1-2 miles off my path and 1000' altitude difference. I keep an eye on it, and then I zoom in on the display and it shows 2 targets. The second target is a diamond that shows continually in front of the CAP plane, and moves with the CAP plane. The diamond target gives no information (no ground speed, no direction of flight, nothing) except for altitude (same as the CAP) and says it's a TIS return. CAP plane moves, TIS target moves. I get closer and my eyes are peeled as the CAP plane target is getting nearer to my flight path. It was above me on the ADS-B and is now below me.

I finally pick up something against the ground, and it's dark. Definitely not a white CAP 172. I wonder if it's a huge drone that's out flying about. Nope, not a drone. It turns towards me. I hold heading and altitude, and it comes right at me. Stays a couple hundred feet below me, and then I finally make out that it's an F-16. He goes directly under me and I pick him up at my 4 and he climbs up maybe 2-300' above me, circles back around paces me at my 4-5 high. I start looking for the second one thinking I'm being intercepted for something. Double check that 121.5 is on the active and check the squelch volume to make sure I can hear. That all checks out. He stays with me for a 30 seconds or so, then kicks up the airspeed, gets to my 3, banks left flying directly back over the the top of me, and heads off to the west. No intercept, dude was just messing with me or giving me a chance to take pictures - which I failed to get except as he was departing, I got one shot where you can tell that yeah, there's a plane, but not what. I look at the ADS-B as I'm heading off. Still shows the CAP flight and its less than actual ground speed.

So, are they kicking out bogus ADS-B information?
 
Last edited:
Seems unlikely in that context, but they certainly can and will never tell you if they do.
 
On ADS-B Exchange you can see a lot of military aircraft daily. However you rarely see tactical type aircraft, such as fighters. I assume its because they are either not equipped or have their ADS-B shutoff. You said you were getting it as a TIS traffic, possible it was showing up because of its regular transponder.

Its possible they were running intercepts on a CAP plane that you didn't see, then mistaken intercepted you.
 
midwestpa24 said:
On ADS-B Exchange you can see a lot of military aircraft daily. However you rarely see tactical type aircraft, such as fighters. I assume its because they are either not equipped or have their ADS-B shutoff. You said you were getting it as a TIS traffic, possible it was showing up because of its regular transponder.

Its possible they were running intercepts on a CAP plane that you didn't see, then mistaken intercepted you.
Click to expand...

The CAP return and the TIS return were co-existent. On ADS-B the CAP plane overflew me, caught me, paced me, and then headed off. Along with the F16 visually. There was no second plane. Just 2 coexistent returns/broadcasts. One with false information, because while I don't have a degree in physics I do know that it's impossible for me to be doing 135GS and an ADS-B target to be going slower than me at 115kts on the display and catch and pass me.
 
EdFred said:
The CAP return and the TIS return were co-existent. On ADS-B the CAP plane overflew me, caught me, paced me, and then headed off. Along with the F16 visually. There was no second plane. Just 2 coexistent returns/broadcasts. One with false information, because while I don't have a degree in physics I do know that it's impossible for me to be doing 135GS and an ADS-B target to be going slower than me at 115kts on the display and catch and pass me.
Click to expand...

Ah maybe I misunderstood. Yeah I have no idea. I do know when tracking military on ADS-B, sometimes their returns get squirrely. Their tracks can jump around quit a bit, with gaps in data. I don't know if that is intentional or accidental.
 
I have flown those CAP missions and even when you know what's coming, it's pretty exciting. Almost certainly the F-16 driver had information from a radar track but no physical description of the target. Possibly you were close enough to the target information that you were mistaken for the CAP airplane. I would have expected that you'd have heard something on 121.5, but every scenario is different. Sometimes we had actual scripts of what to say to the intercepting airplane. I am too lazy to dig one out but there are charts of intercept maneuvers and what they mean. You might check one of those to see if anything looks familiar.
 
I don’t even think fighters are using ADS-B yet. Trainers and transports but I’ve yet to see a fighter emitting ADS-B.

Just watching the MacDill air show on flightradar the other day, no F-22 or Blues. Fat Albert and the rest of the guys used ADS-B though.
 
Velocity173 said:
I don’t even think fighters are using ADS-B yet. Trainers and transports but I’ve yet to see a fighter emitting ADS-B.

Just watching the MacDill air show on flightradar the other day, no F-22 or Blues. Fat Albert and the rest of the guys used ADS-B though.
Click to expand...

I take it back, you can see some of the USAF fighters (F-15/F-16) in Europe show up on ADS-B. I wonder if the EU or EASA is requiring them to have it?
 
The implementation has been mixed. Doubtful a domestic block 50ish Viper has been outfitted with -Out. Those things will go to the boneyard without it imo. Trainers and heavies by and large have been outfitted by now otoh.

I'm sure the last pilot to get shot down because he broadcast his position on the internet all the way from home plate to getting that S-300 up the pipe, hasn't been born yet. The BUFFoonery I've seen in this life supports that sentiment. As with many other things in the military: ".....I rather have the extra gas" :D
 
midwestpa24 said:
I take it back, you can see some of the USAF fighters (F-15/F-16) in Europe show up on ADS-B. I wonder if the EU or EASA is requiring them to have it?
Click to expand...

Probably but even over there they get waivers for stuff. When I was stationed in GE they required RNAV for aircraft with x number of seats. We had a waiver.
 
I'm in the Florida panhandle and whenever I look at ADSB-exchange, I see helo's from Rucker, Helo's and Texans from Pensacola and C-130's from Eglin. I don't think I've ever seen any of the F-16's, F-22's or F-35's.
 
EdFred said:
The CAP return and the TIS return were co-existent. On ADS-B the CAP plane overflew me, caught me, paced me, and then headed off. Along with the F16 visually. There was no second plane. Just 2 coexistent returns/broadcasts. One with false information, because while I don't have a degree in physics I do know that it's impossible for me to be doing 135GS and an ADS-B target to be going slower than me at 115kts on the display and catch and pass me.
Click to expand...
I thought TIS-B was position only. So the rest would be calculated. And if you're getting a TIS-B and ADSB return for the same act, they could be different without anything being spoofed bc TIS-B is also delayed.
 
I’ve seen TCAS / ADS-B tracks jump around on our 500 display. I’ve never been able to correlate it with any type of military interference. Just a glitch that occasionally happens.
 
at one point, the DoD required aircraft have the ability to turn off ADS-B out and also the ability to change Mode S identifiers.

It's been a few years since I worked the DoD requirements related to ADS-B, so I don't know if they've changed (but I doubt it)
 
Some of it is just the DOD not getting around to updating the older stuff. Army bud told me the newer aircraft like the UH-60M, it was just a software upgrade to ADS-B out. That’s why you’ll see a crapload of them on ADS-B exchange / Flightradar24 flying around Rucker. The older Lima models require a whole modified work order and the Army is dragging their feet. They have a waiver so I imagine it’s not a pressing thing for them.
 
The 2 returns were co-existent and were already merged for 20 miles before I got there. There was only one aircraft. The ADS-B altitude of "both" matched the entire time, but the GS was not consistent with what I witnessed. (You can't be going 30 kts slower than me AND pass me)
 
I've had "visitors" a couple of times here on the border. One snuck up from behind and I have no idea how long he was there. Transmited on 121.5 "Intercept aircraft following Tiger N12345 say intention" ... all I got back was "Nice plane" and he broke off. Had a plane out of Mexico form up under and behind me and ATC asked if I was a flight ... replied negative. They turned me a few times until I could see them, looked like a 210, they broke off and went into Mexico airspace.

Heard and saw an intercept returning from California east of Tucson on an aircraft that was going back and forth across the border ...

The drones out west *USED* to be required to have an escort plane, but now they don't. The TFR over San Angelo TX is their "spiral climb" corridor to whatever 18k+ altitude they fly at over the Mexico-USA border.
 
Bob Noel said:
at one point, the DoD required aircraft have the ability to turn off ADS-B out and also the ability to change Mode S identifiers.

It's been a few years since I worked the DoD requirements related to ADS-B, so I don't know if they've changed (but I doubt it)
Click to expand...

Pretty broad statement to say that "the DoD" requires anything. Most POs don't even necessarily agree internally about requirements, let alone branches or the whole DoD
 
That’s pretty slow for an F16. But yea, he was playing with you
 
jrcox19 said:
Pretty broad statement to say that "the DoD" requires anything. Most POs don't even necessarily agree internally about requirements, let alone branches or the whole DoD
Click to expand...

weeeellll, GATM requirements have tended to be downward driven, so it's not much of a stretch to say "the DoD". The PO is responsible for meeting requirements laid down by the MAJCOMs.

I never encountered an aircraft program office that didn't want to be able to turn off ADS-B out or be able to change Mode S ident. More to the point, I never heard of one that rejected such a requirement.
 
I was wondering if the CAP you saw on ADS-B refers to the F16's call sign, with CAP referring to "combat air patrol", rather than dudes in nomex flying Cessnas.
 
Brad Z said:
I was wondering if the CAP you saw on ADS-B refers to the F16's call sign, with CAP referring to "combat air patrol", rather than dudes in nomex flying Cessnas.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but the ADS-B GS readout was way slower than what was actually going on.
 
It kind of makes sense. Practicing an intercept on an imaginary ADSB code would be cheaper, simpler, and probably a lot safer than the hassle of intercepting an actual 172.
 
Albany Tom said:
It kind of makes sense. Practicing an intercept on an imaginary ADSB code would be cheaper, simpler, and probably a lot safer than the hassle of intercepting an actual 172.
Click to expand...


And shooting down an imaginary 172 wouldn’t require all the nuisance paperwork of shooting down a real one.
 
Looked more like:

20220330_150234_resized.jpg

The diamond stayed in front of the arrow the whole time, no matter what the orientation of the arrow was. The diamond was the TIS-B return with nothing but altitude and the arrow gave the CAP flight number/course/speed/etc...

But the ADS-B info was not accurate (GS was way off)
 
If I recall correctly - one time flying across Western Kansas ADSB painted a target directly in front of me, same altitude, same heading and airspeed - sudden and surprising. Turns out that it was my own airplane that was being displayed and shortly disappeared. Signal was sent from the ground and not from my ADSB source in the airplane.
 
Probably simply the system getting a TIS relay that due to a glitch was reported just far enough away your system interpreted it as two targets. It could also have been a flight of two aircraft with only one broadcasting ADSB. Maneuvering fighters can have very inconsistent GS. Maybe they were doing a 1v1 and you wandered into the middle of it. We’re you in a MOA?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top