Does Center ever provide vectors to final?

[Jim K]

It just occurred to me this morning that every time I've flown an approach at an airport that isn't served by a tracon, center clears me for the full procedure. Conversely, tracons (at least those local to me) default to VTF, and I have to request the full procedure if I want to fly the arc or HILPT.

Has anyone ever had a center controller bored enough to give you vectors? Are they allowed to? I suppose their radar coverage isn't low enough in most areas.

 

[PaulS]

It just occurred to me this morning that every time I've flown an approach at an airport that isn't served by a tracon, center clears me for the full procedure. Conversely, tracons (at least those local to me) default to VTF, and I have to request the full procedure if I want to fly the arc or HILPT.

Has anyone ever had a center controller bored enough to give you vectors? Are they allowed to? I suppose their radar coverage isn't low enough in most areas.

I don't think that's happened to me, but I'm still pretty new to this. Generally, if not always, they need you on radar to issue vtf.

 

[Pugs]

Yep. Potomac Approach has done it several times for me going into Fredrick MD but they've only done it in actual weather. The don't do it every time. For practice approaches they just clear you for the whole approach.

*disregard - mis-read the center vs TRACON part

 

[luvflyin]

It just occurred to me this morning that every time I've flown an approach at an airport that isn't served by a tracon, center clears me for the full procedure. Conversely, tracons (at least those local to me) default to VTF, and I have to request the full procedure if I want to fly the arc or HILPT.

Has anyone ever had a center controller bored enough to give you vectors? Are they allowed to? I suppose their radar coverage isn't low enough in most areas.

They can and I’m sure they do. There are some rules they have to follow that are different than what an Approach Control does.

e. EN ROUTE. The following provisions are required before an aircraft may be vectored to the final approach course:
1. The approach gate and a line (solid or broken), depicting the final approach course starting at or passing through the approach gate and extending away from the airport, be displayed on the radar scope; for a precision approach, the line length must extend at least the maximum range of the localizer; for a nonprecision approach, the line length must extend at least 10 NM outside the approach gate; and
2. The maximum range selected on the radar display is 150 NM; or
3. An adjacent radar display is set at 125 NM or less, configured for the approach in use, and is utilized for the vector to the final approach course.
4. If unable to comply with subparas 1, 2, or 3 above, issue the clearance in accordance with Paragraph 4−8−1, Approach Clearance.
REFERENCE−
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 4−8−1, Approach Clearance. FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 5−9−2, Final Approach Course

 

[RussR]

It just occurred to me this morning that every time I've flown an approach at an airport that isn't served by a tracon, center clears me for the full procedure. Conversely, tracons (at least those local to me) default to VTF, and I have to request the full procedure if I want to fly the arc or HILPT.

Has anyone ever had a center controller bored enough to give you vectors? Are they allowed to? I suppose their radar coverage isn't low enough in most areas.

I thought it had to do with Center's radar update rate being much slower than Approach's (and therefore not usable for vectoring to final), but that information could be pretty old.

 

[EdFred]

I've gotten vectors for an approach from ZMP, and heard them given numerous times in northern Michigan and Wisconsin.

 

[Velocity173]

Yep, JAX Center used to take over our airspace when we closed and could vector to final. Not gonna be able to run a surveillance approach but could vector to final. Also gotten vectors from JAX for IAPs outside of SAV TRACON. Mountainous areas and refresh rate gives them problems though.

https://atccommunication.com/vectors-and-say-again/

 

[aterpster]

I thought it had to do with Center's radar update rate being much slower than Approach's (and therefore not usable for vectoring to final), but that information could be pretty old.

There was an accident years ago with a center vector to an ILS. The controller had the range set wrong on the ARSR scope, causing him to call a step-down incorrectly, or something like that.

 

[Jim K]

I suppose part of the reason I never see it is because much of my flying is where the far edges of Kansas city, Chicago, and Indianapolis meet.

I was impressed yesterday when the Kansas city controller cleared me for the approach and told me to enjoy my breakfast. I wondered if they brief fly-ins in their sector or if he got it from a previous pilot.

 

[luvflyin]

I suppose part of the reason I never see it is because much of my flying is where the far edges of Kansas city, Chicago, and Indianapolis meet.

I was impressed yesterday when the Kansas city controller cleared me for the approach and told me to enjoy my breakfast. I wondered if they brief fly-ins in their sector or if he got it from a previous pilot.

Could have been either. Was it one of those places that have a standing breakfast thing, like the first Sunday of the month? As far as an 'official' briefing that probably wouldn't happen. A change of controller briefing could go something like "it's nice day at Kwhatever and here they come, have fun."

 

[SethV]

Yes, northern MI is mostly controlled by Minneapolis Center. They will vector and clear you for the approach (ACB, PLN, etc).

 

[flyingron]

I don't think I've ever not been vectored to final at SVH and it's handled by ZTL.

 

[midwestpa24]

It happens here occasionally, but depends a lot on radar coverage. They can't quite hold us on radar at 3,000, the initial altitude for most of our approaches. However if you are willing to stay higher and intercept further out, they usually will. ADS-B does seem to have helped this, as they seem to be able to see us lower now.

 

[Clip4]

Exception to every rule, but Center provides basic radar service - no vectors and sequencing.

 

[Velocity173]

Exception to every rule, but Center provides basic radar service - no vectors and sequencing.

Basic Radar Service or “flight following” is generally used to describe the service provided to VFRs. That service does allow vectors and sequencing. Center radar, while having refresh restrictions is still quite capable of providing both of those services.

 

[luvflyin]

Basic Radar Service or “flight following” is generally used to describe the service provided to VFRs. That service does allow vectors and sequencing. Center radar, while having refresh restrictions is still quite capable of providing both of those services.

Yeah. The 12 seconds per sweep of an ARSR vs the 4.5 seconds of an ASR isn’t that big a deal. What is a significant is ‘track jumps.’ Typically Center Radar Displays are fed by more than one ARSR radar antenna. It picks the ‘strongest hit’ at any particular time. When it changes antennas, the target can jump by more than a mile sometimes. There are some places where a particular scope will be wired as ‘single source.’ Then most Terminal ASR rules can be used. Like 3 miles separation within 40 miles of the antenna. The only exceptions I can think of are what we’ve been discussing here, vectors to final, and vectoring below the MVA where it’s allowed.

 

[PastZTL]

Enroute facilities can and do provide vectors to final. As @flyingron said SVH is a good example. Pilots can expect vectors to final at HKY nearby as well and in fact there was (is) a Letter to Airmen advertising practice instrument approaches there.

 

[dmspilot]

Exception to every rule, but Center provides basic radar service - no vectors and sequencing.

Basic radar service is a service described by AIM 4-1-18, "Terminal Radar Services for VFR Aircraft". I think it's pretty clear OP was asking about IFR. Furthermore, basic radar service may include vectoring for VFR pilots upon request.

 

[luvflyin]

Basic radar service is a service described by AIM 4-1-18, "Terminal Radar Services for VFR Aircraft". I think it's pretty clear OP was asking about IFR. Furthermore, basic radar service may include vectoring for VFR pilots upon request.

Yeah. More in 4-1-15, 16 and 17 that covers the whole Radar Service thing before you get to the Terminal programs.

 

[flyingron]

Exception to every rule, but Center provides basic radar service - no vectors and sequencing.

First off, the "exception" negates the premise that center never vectors to final.
Further, there is no such "rule" to except. Centers very much provide SEQUENCING at all levels. You ever listen to them handling planes going into busy terminal areas?

I don't think SVH is much of an exception anyhow other than it is very close to a busy TRACON. Out in the rural areas, having low altitude center sectors providing vectoring, etc... doesn't seem that uncommon.

 

[woywoyboy]

Seattle center definitely gave me vectors for the ILS into Arcata (KACV) the last time I flew there IFR; Oakland center also used to give me vectors to the ILS at Santa Rosa (KSTS) if I remember correctly (it's been a while).