Does an rv handle IMC well?

simtech

simtech

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Simtech
I've always loved an rv6 ever since I flew in one a while back. But being small how well can they handle IMC? Are they too sketchy for it and not practical? Most people over at vans Air Force say they are designed for VFR only...
 
The 6 might be a tad "twitchy", but it is certainly doable. I would be in the VFR column though.

The 10 is much more suited to hard IMC. IMHO.
 
It's quite capable, especially if you've got a good autopilot. As with just about anything else, the answer is "it depends." What panel is installed? What autopilot? What backup instrumentation? Heated pitot? AOA sensor?

RV's are spirited airplanes and can be a handful in turbulence, but with any of the commonly available autopilots they'll make a quite suitable cross-country IFR machine as long as you stay out of the hard weather, just like any other non-FIKI small certified aircraft.
 
I think it depends more on the pilot than anything else. If you're a competent RV pilot, the aircraft's flight characteristics are not a significant problem for flying in actual instrument conditions. Otherwise, even flying in visual conditions will be a problem.
 
I did my IR training in a -7A and logged quite a bit of actual IMC in the -7A in the couple of years after completing the IR. It does get tossed around in turbulence more than larger a/c, but its controls are rock-solid stable, so it's very effective in managing the turbulence. If you or your passenger has a weak stomach, you WILL notice the turbulence more in the short-winged RVs than in a larger plane.

The nice thing about the RV series is that they climb so well, if you're punching through something to get on top, you can do it pretty quickly and be out of the bumps and up into the smooth air pretty fast.
 
It depends. IMC can be smoother than VMC. Why wouldn't an RV handle smooth air?
 
RV's will sure shoot up thru a sucker hole with ease to get you up on top :D

They are definitely a real handful to hand-fly in turbulence however, as was mentioned earlier.

Lots of RV owners out there fly real IFR/IMC in them all the time, and those guys all have one thing in common... a 2-axis autopilot coupled to a GPS :yes:

I'm VFR-only and will stick with flying mine only in fair weather ;)
 
Isn't that why they came up with the RV-9? To have a more stable cross country machine?
 
Dav8or said:
Isn't that why they came up with the RV-9? To have a more stable cross country machine?
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I thought the RV-14 was supposed to be the the more stable (and larger) version of the 7, yet still be able to do gentlemen's aerobatics...
 
Brad Z said:
I thought the RV-14 was supposed to be the the more stable (and larger) version of the 7, yet still be able to do gentlemen's aerobatics...
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That and also to be able to carry pilots who needed those sleep apnea tests.
 
I fly IFR
I own a RV-9A.
The 9A is less likely to end up inverted in IMC with inattention than say a RV-6 might due to a slower roll rate. It is tossed about in turbulence though.

I also have a Lancair which is smaller and lighter than the 9A. The Lancair handles turbulence much better than the 9A. The Lancair is less likely to end up inverted in IMC with inattention than the 9A might because it has more roll stability and is less affected by gusts with higher wing loading.
For me, I prefer the Lancairs smooth ride.

In the end, it is just a personal choice. Do you want the ability to fly aerobatics in a RV-6 while tolerating a rougher ride in unstable air or would you prefer a more stable platform? If you are low time, are a new instrument pilot or don't plan to fly IFR much, an RV-6 may be less stable of a platform that you want.
 
I've flown our (I'm in a partnership) RV-7 close to 20 hrs actual IMC. IMHO, it is an absolute joy to fly IFR. G3X with synthetic vision, GTN-650 and a 2-axis autopilot, it almost feels like I'm cheating :D

I did all of my instrument training in analog gauge aircraft, then did "transition" IFR training in the RV-7. Super, SUPER stable IFR platform!
 
RV-6's acro weight max limit is only 1400 lbs. Pretty much limits it to solo acro only given that empty weight is generally between 1000-1100 lbs on most of them (mine is 1016).

BTW, how's pitch stability on your Lancair? One of the guys at my airport has a Lancair 360 and says it's got "negative pitch stability"" in that when you pitch up or down while being trimmed level, that it wants to increasingly go more and more up, or down, respectively.
 
Neal Howard said:
RV-6's acro weight max limit is only 1400 lbs. Pretty much limits it to solo acro only given that empty weight is generally between 1000-1100 lbs on most of them (mine is 1016).

BTW, how's pitch stability on your Lancair? One of the guys at my airport has a Lancair 360 and says it's got "negative pitch stability"" in that when you pitch up or down while being trimmed level, that it wants to increasingly go more and more up, or down, respectively.
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Pitch stability is very light stick force and travel for significant effect. It is very easy to be off altitude by 400 feet in no time at all. I don't know I would say it increasingly goes more up or down, but it does take extremely light stick force and travel. If I pull or push maybe 1 inch on the stick it would be like pulling or pushing maybe 6 inches on the RV stick.
If you wave an arm up or down the nose will pitch up or down with just an extended arm.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I flown in my buddy's rv-6 a few times and I love the speed and agility. But while flying it I was thinking man in some IMC I wonder what it would be like since this thing is so twitchy. My buddy flies it so smooth and I know with time it would smooth out for me too. When I first flew it I pulled on it like a cessna...oh man that was a blast, but quickly learned light pressure and 2 fingers on the controls!



So if you were to buy an already flying one...what areas are big items to look at as far as build quality is concerned? My main concern is are the wings gonna fall off or the tail fall off.

I know auto pilots are expensive in certified aircraft..How do they relate getting them for experimental as an add on later?
 
FORANE said:
I fly IFR
I own a RV-9A.
The 9A is less likely to end up inverted in IMC with inattention than say a RV-6 might due to a slower roll rate. It is tossed about in turbulence though.
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I think if you are likely to end up inverted in IMC in a -6, you run the same risk in a -9. The roll rate isn't THAT much less, and even a -9 is still far more spritely than a Cherokee or Cessna single.

I've flown 3 hour IMC legs in my -6A, and it's not a big deal. I prefer it over something like an Arrow, in fact, because the control is just that much more precise.
 
simtech said:
So if you were to buy an already flying one...what areas are big items to look at as far as build quality is concerned? My main concern is are the wings gonna fall off or the tail fall off.

I know auto pilots are expensive in certified aircraft..How do they relate getting them for experimental as an add on later?
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I'd strongly recommend getting an EAA tech counselor or someone who has built an RV to go over a prospective purchase with you before you sign the check. A casual inspection won't catch the important stuff, especially if the aircraft has a killer paint job and pretty panel.

Regarding autopilots, they are far more affordable in a homebuilt than they are for certified aircraft and often (but not always) have superior capabilities. Adding the autopilot to my -6A cost me about $1500 for the servos, which are driven the EFIS I already had. This provides two-axis functionality with altitude pre-select and coupled approaches. Very nice.
 
simtech said:
So if you were to buy an already flying one...what areas are big items to look at as far as build quality is concerned? My main concern is are the wings gonna fall off or the tail fall off.

I know auto pilots are expensive in certified aircraft..How do they relate getting them for experimental as an add on later?
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$3k and a weekend to install a single axis (roll) A/P that will track a course guided by a handheld or panel mount GPS. A two axis system is more, and vertical guidance adds a premium.

As far as build quality goes, the place to start is firewall forward. That's where people make mistakes that get them in trouble. With over 8,000 RV's in the air, there is an RV contingent almost anywhere you go, so get an experienced RV guy or an A&P to inspect the airplane - even better, get an A&P and an RV guy to look. The kits for RV-6's were not prepunched, whereas RV-7 kits were prepunched. The prepunched kits make it far easier to assemble a straight airframe, although there are plenty of very straight RV-6's. Rig issues can be identified on test flights. If the airplane doesn't fly straight, look carefully.
 
To those that fly the RV in IMC with the autopilot, is this equipment considered by you to be required equipment for IMC? In other words, if your autopilot was inop, would you still feel comfortable and safe launching into known hard IMC? Is it wise to be so dependent on an autopilot?

I can understand using the IR and autopilot to punch through a marine layer where it is known to be VFR on top, but flying for hours, take off to landing in the soup, relying on the comfort of an autopilot seems risky too me. If the guys over on the Vans forum say the plane is pretty much VFR, I'd believe them. I personally wouldn't want to fly any plane in hard IMC that I didn't feel 100% comfortable flying by hand and for that, stability is king .
 
I wouldn't, personally, launch into IMC in any plane that I didn't feel comfortable hand flying in IFR. The autopilot is a tool, not a crutch.
 
S Joslin said:
I wouldn't, personally, launch into IMC in any plane that I didn't feel comfortable hand flying in IFR. The autopilot is a tool, not a crutch.
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Yes, I agree. I'm just afraid that some reading this thread might think, "Great, just add autopilot and I'm OK." I think this is the wrong message. A plane is either easy to fly IMC or it's not. Depending on a robot to help fly the beast is not wise.
 
Dav8or said:
To those that fly the RV in IMC with the autopilot, is this equipment considered by you to be required equipment for IMC? In other words, if your autopilot was inop, would you still feel comfortable and safe launching into known hard IMC? Is it wise to be so dependent on an autopilot?
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Flying IFR without the AP is no big deal, but you do need to keep the aircraft in trim. I think that's the same for anything, however - hand flying an out-of-trim aircraft presents a much higher workload.

I wonder how many folks trim their aircraft to fly straight & level before engaging the AP?
 
Dav8or said:
To those that fly the RV in IMC with the autopilot, is this equipment considered by you to be required equipment for IMC? In other words, if your autopilot was inop, would you still feel comfortable and safe launching into known hard IMC? Is it wise to be so dependent on an autopilot?
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It depends...

Safe IMC operations are on the pilot, not the aircraft. If you can't hand-fly in IMC, then you better not fly in IMC period, end of story. The RV's are perfectly flyable by hand in IMC, but the workload is higher than handflying some other aircraft due to its high response to small control inputs. If it's a short 45 minute leg going somewhere in IMC I wouldn't be too worried about whether or not the AP was functioning - but I would cancel a 4-5 hour trip and troubleshoot the malfunction. The difference there is the fatigue factor.
 
simtech said:
I flown in my buddy's rv-6 a few times and I love the speed and agility. But while flying it I was thinking man in some IMC I wonder what it would be like since this thing is so twitchy.
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"Twitchy" is in the eye of the beholder. I know people who never flew anything but a Cessna/Piper/Beech, got in a Grumman, and said "This is too 'twitchy'." OTOH, I know others who learned from scratch in Grummans and love them, and when they get in a C/P/B, they feel it's too sluggish. And then there's my wife learned in a C-150, jumped in a Yankee right after, and got her IR in a Cheetah -- she did just fine. So as I said from the start, if you can fly an RV fine in visual conditions, you can fly it fine in instrument conditions -- it's just a matter of developing the appropriate feel for the airplane.
 
When I first started flying RVs (coming from a decade of Cherokee ownership, and my first transition was in an RV-4), I thought they were very twitchy. So twitchy in fact, I considered the transition to be practically like learning how to fly an airplane all over again from scratch. I was overcontrolling the RV pretty badly and it took a while for me to get accustomed to it.

Now that I've got a couple hundred RV hours under my belt in various models (4/6/7/8/10), sometimes I consider my RV-6 to feel even a little sluggish in handling... that is, until I get into turbulence :smilewinkgrin: Then I wouldn't mind having a little bit of that "driving a dump truck with no power steering" feeling back in the controls.
 
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If you want to do much IFR flying get a 2 axis AP. Not stupid expensive for an experimental, I think you can purchase a good one with an install kit for 3-4 grand maybe?

I fly a swift which I think is very similar to an RV in control feel. It has a 6 pack and IFR set up, no AP though. Its very sensitive. I have no trouble hand flying approaches, but it is a little more work than something like a Mooney. I think I would get worn out significantly faster in the swift if I had to hand fly in IMC for extended periods of time.
 
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