Do you solicit Passengers

E

evapilotaz

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Drone airspace abuser
Do you solicit Passengers to share Flying Cost?

There are many times my flying will come up in conversation and I say "Hey do you want to go flying and we share the cost" Does this sound ok to help off set the cost of flying? I'm speaking about aircraft rental only. I know FAR dictate the Passenger cannot pay for all the flight. :nono:

Thanks.
 
Soliciting is a bad word...

If you've got a relationship with the people already, and the point of the flight is for you to go flying together, then you're ok sharing the costs.

However, you can cross the line if:
You're dealing with people you don't already know.
You start offering to take people places if they pay for a share.

The way I've always done this is to offer to take someone for a flight sometime. If they offer to share expenses, I will accept up to the pro-rata share. I let THEM bring up the cost-sharing.
 
Sure :) but they are all friends.
 
evapilotaz said:
Do you solicit Passengers to share Flying Cost?

There are many times my flying will come up in conversation and I say "Hey do you want to go flying and we share the cost" Does this sound ok to help off set the cost of flying? I'm speaking about aircraft rental only. I know FAR dictate the Passenger cannot pay for all the flight. :nono:

Thanks.
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No, but I've offered to pay when flying as non-PIC with others.

I don't let passengers kick in money, I always tell them "First hits Free!"
 
Here is how I look at it.

I can't affored to give free rides all the time. If I'm going flying anyway and would like to give an opportunity to enjoy the thrill of flight I won't share cost. If they start telling their buddies and they approach me to go flying, I would have to charge. Im Not made of money here.

Thanks for the comments.
 
No, I do not. It's an invitation to serious trouble. If you are thinking about going somewhere with someone else who has a common interest in going to that place at that time (e.g., going to a ball game or a vacation spot or the like), that's one thing. But asking folks if they want to go for an airplane ride and share the expenses is crossing the line the FAA draws in the sand.
 
evapilotaz said:
Here is how I look at it.

I can't affored to give free rides all the time. If I'm going flying anyway and would like to give an opportunity to enjoy the thrill of flight I won't share cost. If they start telling their buddies and they approach me to go flying, I would have to charge. Im Not made of money here.

Thanks for the comments.
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I've hit some of the same issues. It got out I was giving rides for free. So people asked...... not a problem, I'm going anyways. But then it turned into "Hey, can you come down and land at XYZ airport and pick me and my kid up?". The airports got further, and I spend more time flying to and back from my home airport than what the ride was.

So while I don't charge, I don't take people unless we leave from my home airport, and I'm going anyways.
 
Nope. I offer rides to friends and co-workers, but have never made any explicit or implicit indication that sharing expenses is necessary.
 
I've been told that "tip" or "nice dinner" is acceptable, but never got either.
Is it something I said?

I have taken a few people who were interested for a free ride. They couldn't afford it anyway. They had a blast, and that made me feel good. Worth it.

"Hey, can you come down and land at XYZ airport and pick me and my kid up?". The airports got further, and I spend more time flying to and back from my home airport than what the ride was...
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Now that's another story. That is taking advantage of you.
 
I have given very few airplane rides. Mostly to hot chicks, but some to my close friends. Friends of friends are no bueno for airplane rides.
 
I invite only friends. If it's the first time they've flown with me, I make it clear they're always welcome to buy me lunch.

I recently had a friend ask if I was interested in taking her and her niece to Pagosa for the niece's birthday present, and she'd pay for everything. I explained that FAA rules do not allow me to charge, nor can she initiate/solicit the flight. On the other hand, I've made her the offer many times to join me for lunch at Salida. So if she & munchkin were interested in joining me in Salida (one of my favorite places) for lunch - she buys lunch - as soon as the weather looks good, we'll go.

Her original request was for the weekend at the hot springs in Pagosa (PSO) and she'd pay for everything. FAA rules again. As much as I'd love to go to Pagosa, my cherokee won't handle 3 adults, 1 munchkin & gear and full fuel from the east side of the Rocky Mountains to the west side of the Rocky Mountains.
 
evapilotaz said:
Here is how I look at it.

I can't affored to give free rides all the time. If I'm going flying anyway and would like to give an opportunity to enjoy the thrill of flight I won't share cost. If they start telling their buddies and they approach me to go flying, I would have to charge.
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Now there's a problem. If you were going to go anyway, you have a proper sharing flight.

But your second scenario as stated involves some folks coming to to you for a flight that you wouldn't be doing otherwise and you wanting to get paid for it.

That's not a "joint venture for a common purpose" flight as I read the numerous Chief Counsel opinions and NTSB decisions on the subject. Quacks more like and air tour or charter. Even got "holding out" by worth of mouth.

No sharing at all allowed
 
Free rides for everyone who's company I enjoy. I much prefer flying with an enthusiastic friend than alone.
 
My general rule is first time riders fly fo free. I'm happy to give someone the GA experience. After that, pay up sucker.

Usually my shared flights involve traveling with friends to a destination.
 
Ok let me correct one thing. I know I cannot charge for a flight. That was the wrong wording. What I meant was share cost. I would never charge for a flight.
 
evapilotaz said:
Ok let me correct one thing. I know I cannot charge for a flight. That was the wrong wording. What I meant was share cost. I would never charge for a flight.
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Doesn't matter what word you use. The issue is whether or not there is "common purpose" for the flight, i.e., that you all have reason to go that destination at that time. So on those $100 hamburger runs, unless your passengers already planned to have lunch there anyway, no expense sharing on such flights. That also essentially wipes out sightseeing, since there is no real "destination" on a sightseeing flight, and it looks too much like a 91.147 operation
 
i'd argue sightseeing could be a common purpose

Although I seem to remember paying for all of the sightseeing flights i've been on.

Is it ok to agree to share costs beforehand? As in: "hey, i'm going to fly to that cabin this weekend, driving is for whimps. You guys want a ride? it will cost around $50 a person to take the plane if we all go... "

This is assuming the guys I am offering a ride were planning on going to the cabin regardless.
 
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dell30rb said:
i'd argue sightseeing could be a common purpose
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You certainly can, but I doubt it would pass Chief Counsel muster,given the way they've defined it in the past.

Is it ok to agree to share costs beforehand? As in: "hey, i'm going to fly to that cabin this weekend, driving is for whimps. You guys want a ride? it will cost around $50 a person to take the plane if we all go... "
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Sure, as long as all of you are going "same day, same way," and you don't alter your plans to suit your passengers.
 
I'll present an outside position.

As an enthusiast who loves to fly but isn't yet able to pilot, I make it known to all pilot friends that if they are going up and looking for a passenger, I'm always willing to go up. I of course always offer to split fuel, but a true offer. If they accept, I pay up. Some take it, some don't.

I've never asked for a ride to an actual destination as a favor, or as a paying passenger. Each time I've gone up, it's always been a sightseeing tour, $100 burger, getting some hours in, etc, etc.

Of course it's been a while...I'm new to this area.
 
This came up at a Christmas party recently (all pilots). So many of the male pilots (ok all of them) basically said they don't EVER accept money. They always fly people around for free (no lunches either). Then again, they are rich and I'm not.
 
pericynthion said:
I'm pretty sure "gas, grass or ass" is in the FARs somewhere...
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The compensation need not be in monetary form to constitute a violation of the regulation. The fact that value can be ascribed to all three is sufficient. ;) Or in the words of Hannibal Lector, "Quid pro quo, Agent Starling, quid pro quo."
 
Ron Levy said:
The compensation need not be in monetary form to constitute a violation of the regulation. The fact that value can be ascribed to all three is sufficient. ;) Or in the words of Hannibal Lector, "Quid pro quo, Agent Starling, quid pro quo."
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What is the value on the third one?
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
This came up at a Christmas party recently (all pilots). So many of the male pilots (ok all of them) basically said they don't EVER accept money. They always fly people around for free (no lunches either). Then again, they are rich and I'm not.
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There's something else you are which they aren't which might influence that situation. Y'all know the joke about the guy telling about this great bar in town, the punchline of which is, "Well, that's what my sister told me about the place.":D
 
So wait a tick. If I tell my friends "hey wanna go fly up to Detroit with me to gamble" (my idea, my solicitation, and we can pretend I gamble), then I can't share the cost with my friends because it was my idea?

BUT if I said "hey let's go up to Detroit to go gamble" and one of my friends says "oh we should go and hey maybe you could fly us" then suddenly I'm ok to share costs..
 
ChrisK said:
So wait a tick. If I tell my friends "hey wanna go fly up to Detroit with me to gamble" (my idea, my solicitation, and we can pretend I gamble), then I can't share the cost with my friends because it was my idea?
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No. You could do that unless you change the date, departure point, or destination of your trip in order to accommodate them as that would then fail the "common purpose" test.
BUT if I said "hey let's go up to Detroit to go gamble" and one of my friends says "oh we should go and hey maybe you could fly us" then suddenly I'm ok to share costs..
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Again, if the time is predetermined by you and not changed to accommodate the others and you don't hold out willingness to do this to the general public as opposed to a couple of friends with whom you might do this by car rather than an airplane, yes, you could.
 
Ok, so.. I say "hey I'm going on Saturday want to come and share costs?" and one of my friends says "I'm busy Saturday how about Sunday" and we all say "that's fine".

That one is on the bad list.

This is the kind of education you can't pay for.
 
ChrisK said:
Ok, so.. I say "hey I'm going on Saturday want to come and share costs?" and one of my friends says "I'm busy Saturday how about Sunday" and we all say "that's fine".

That one is on the bad list.
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Yup. Common purpose just went away when you indicated your willingess to fit your schedule to your paying passsenger's.

And please, everyone, let's keep in mind that this is an academic discussion of the application of the FAA's interpretations and regulations. The FAA isn't out there in the forest waiting for trees to fall so they can hear the sound. They aren't out there checking for friends and family happily traveling together. So if your friends aren't the type to take a compaint about the trip to the FAA, the FAA just won't care. Just don't you give them reason to complain or otherwise bring things to the FAA's attention.
 
Thanks for the clarification. I'm kind of a hobbyist regulation freak in other areas of my life, so these kinds of things fascinate me. I understand that in my example of course I could have said "this weekend" and we could have negotiated the day based on our schedules, and this is more likely what would have happened. The theoretical conversation is most interesting though!
 
Ron Levy said:
Kimberly, were you really born yesterday? Or have you just led an incredibly sheltered existence?
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kimberlyanne546 said:
Neither but I'm not a hooker.
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