dmccormack
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dan Mc
Now you're talking crazy talk!
Do you loan out your airplane?
- Thread starter John Baker
- Start date
Now you're talking crazy talk!
tdager
En-Route
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LittleIronPilot
What did he win?
steingar
Taxi to Parking
He won his airplane in the EAA sweepstakes. That's why its called the Free Bird. Not an apt moniker, nothing in life is free. He was going to name it The Lucky Strike, but didn't want the association with the cigarette brand. Besides, Free Bird is a cool song.
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Bob Noel
When I first got my 140, I set it up (insurance) for a couple of other people to fly it. But I stopped soon. One of the guys wanted to fly a plane with more useful load, so he was out. The other guy never needed it (he had his own Archer).
I prefer not to loan it out. I really like having the plane exactly as I left it.
denverpilot
Tied Down
We haven't, but our LLC is set up to accept up to two more owners if the right person were interested.
I flew the aircraft as a named-insured with a one-year contract to the LLC to ensure "people compatibility" prior to buying in fully. The two owners got a chance to sniff me out a bit, I flew a required aircraft checkout with a CFI they trusted, and I got to see if I felt it was good for me, too.
In the contract year, the other LLC owners had the "upper hand" with an "immediate termination" clause, while I was on the hook for fixed costs by setting a monthly rate to be paid to the LLC regardless. They in turn opened the books to all their financial info accumulated, offered to let me do a Pre-buy, and let me have at it with the aircraft logs. (Actually they even had them scanned and on a CD-ROM, with only the last year's entries on paper-only.)
It's a good way for a small LLC to mitigate that, "Oh wow, this guy's an ass!" regrets. Apparently I was well-behaved enough that we wrote up new LLC purchase paperwork the following year, and I became a 1/3 share owner of the LLC that owns the aircraft.
So no, no lending so far. Contracted or at the very least a letter-of-authorization (required by our insurance anyway, but we'd do named-insured, most likely) would be the bare minimum to fly our bird.
I flew the aircraft as a named-insured with a one-year contract to the LLC to ensure "people compatibility" prior to buying in fully. The two owners got a chance to sniff me out a bit, I flew a required aircraft checkout with a CFI they trusted, and I got to see if I felt it was good for me, too.
In the contract year, the other LLC owners had the "upper hand" with an "immediate termination" clause, while I was on the hook for fixed costs by setting a monthly rate to be paid to the LLC regardless. They in turn opened the books to all their financial info accumulated, offered to let me do a Pre-buy, and let me have at it with the aircraft logs. (Actually they even had them scanned and on a CD-ROM, with only the last year's entries on paper-only.)
It's a good way for a small LLC to mitigate that, "Oh wow, this guy's an ass!" regrets. Apparently I was well-behaved enough that we wrote up new LLC purchase paperwork the following year, and I became a 1/3 share owner of the LLC that owns the aircraft.
So no, no lending so far. Contracted or at the very least a letter-of-authorization (required by our insurance anyway, but we'd do named-insured, most likely) would be the bare minimum to fly our bird.
silver-eagle
En-Route
Never borrow what you can't replace and never loan what you can't do without. In most cases, renting keeps everyone happy.
Keith Lane
Pattern Altitude
I don't borrow what I can't replace, and don't have anything material that I can't live without.
Unless I trade my plane for another, I'll not own another. I'd trade it for a small taildragger in a minute.
alaskaflyer
Final Approach
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Alaskaflyer
I would if they are a better pilot than me, can be added to my insurance and are of character that I know they would write a check for any cost above and beyond what insurance would fix in a booboo moment.
It's just a plane. (cue jokes about wives and girlfriends.)
It's just a plane. (cue jokes about wives and girlfriends.)
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I think I see what's going on in this thread. The dichotomy occurs between those who work in aviation, and those who fly recreationally. For those in the business:
a means to an end. For those of us who fly recreationally, often the emotional attachment to an aircraft, however irrational, is far stronger. It obviously is in my case.
Of course, a side-effect of this is those in aviation are more likely to have friends and associates in aviation who would see the loan of an airplane as a normal and reasonable thing. If I told any of my non-aviation friends (who outnumber my aviation friends quite handily) that I'd loaned out my aircraft, they'd think I was nuts. Heck, they think I'm nuts for flying the thing in the first place.
a means to an end. For those of us who fly recreationally, often the emotional attachment to an aircraft, however irrational, is far stronger. It obviously is in my case.
Of course, a side-effect of this is those in aviation are more likely to have friends and associates in aviation who would see the loan of an airplane as a normal and reasonable thing. If I told any of my non-aviation friends (who outnumber my aviation friends quite handily) that I'd loaned out my aircraft, they'd think I was nuts. Heck, they think I'm nuts for flying the thing in the first place.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I don't think so. I don't work in aviation and If I had an airplane I wouldn't hesitate to borrow it to those I trusted provided the right insurance checkboxes were checked (which in itself can prove to be a challenge).
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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iFlyNothing
Exactly. Interestingly, the people I know who have the nicest planes are also typically the most willing to loan them out (to the right people, of course).
Pa28-140
Pre-takeoff checklist
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Gordon Shumway
I had a guy ask me one time if he could borrow my airplane. He offered to "throw some gas in it". I politely said that I would rather loan him my wife. (Note to self: make sure wife isn't within earshot.) He laughed. She didn't. The credit card went wild for a while and all I could do was smile. Game, set, match. She wins again! 
Aztec Driver
Line Up and Wait
I don't understand why all the fuss about whether one person would loan out their plane and another one wouldn't. It is personal opinion and desires. I have a reasonable plane. There are only a few people I know that I would allow to borrow my plane. I have allowed one person to borrow it, and it was for around 20 flight hours. It came back with a fresh oil change from a shop where he had gone. Very nice of him.
On the other hand, I can certainly see the reasons for not allowing anyone to use it. Increased liability for one. Planes are not cheap to fly. Engine and maintenance reserves cost money. The person who borrowed mine could not have afforded the amount for reserves that the plane costs for those 20 hours. I had to pony up that money. Others may not be in a position to be able to do that. And also the method one uses to operate their airplane may not be the same as others. I have certain idiosyncracies about flying my airplane that I want followed, and others do not necessarily do it the same way.
Just because the initial outlay may have been small doesn't mean it is cheap to operate. (I didn't know the "Free Bird" was free. Congrats)
So whay are we attacking others about it?
On the other hand, I can certainly see the reasons for not allowing anyone to use it. Increased liability for one. Planes are not cheap to fly. Engine and maintenance reserves cost money. The person who borrowed mine could not have afforded the amount for reserves that the plane costs for those 20 hours. I had to pony up that money. Others may not be in a position to be able to do that. And also the method one uses to operate their airplane may not be the same as others. I have certain idiosyncracies about flying my airplane that I want followed, and others do not necessarily do it the same way.
Just because the initial outlay may have been small doesn't mean it is cheap to operate. (I didn't know the "Free Bird" was free. Congrats)
So whay are we attacking others about it?
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John Baker
Final Approach
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John Baker
I actually have an ulterior motive to my letting my friend use my plane. My business is now down to just one employee, myself. I had to let the young woman who has worked for me for twelve years go on Jan. 1st. There just flat out is not enough business for my shop to support two people. I offered to sell it to her at a give away price, about 1/3 rd the inventory and machinery costs, if even that, but she didn't want to have the hassles of ownership.
So now I just do not have the time to fly, nor much money for it either. I am lucky to get up once a month, so letting him use my plane helps to keep the rust out of the cylinders. Airplanes are meant to fly, not sit on a tarmac. I can't sell it and I don't want it to rot, so he gets to use it now and then.
John
So now I just do not have the time to fly, nor much money for it either. I am lucky to get up once a month, so letting him use my plane helps to keep the rust out of the cylinders. Airplanes are meant to fly, not sit on a tarmac. I can't sell it and I don't want it to rot, so he gets to use it now and then.
John
Artiom
Pre-takeoff checklist
I don't own the plane yet but I've never considered to borrow one. I prefer renting to avoid any headache to someone I can borrow the plane from and do something wrong. When I buy mine I doubt I'll ever alow somebody to borrow it. Just like that.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Thank you both very much. I do spend a significant amount of time "paying forward" whenever I can. I think this thread got quite a bit of life from my own fairly vehement opinions and statements therein. I won't say my attitude is logical or even makes sense (the reasons I cited could be just as persuasively applied to my car, which I've loaned out on frequent occasions). Its just mine.
N1347B
Pre-takeoff checklist
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Deb McFarland
gkainz
Final Approach
not specifically airplanes (I can't loan "mine" out, since I only own 1/40th of it), but I have heartburn about loaning and borrowing. My heartburn stems not from the value of something, but from the potential impact to friendships if something goes wrong. Not from my side, but from "how's my friend going to feel if something happens to ___ while they have it?"
I loaned my RV to a friend a couple of times, and a deer hit him (yeah, deer ran smack into the middle of the coach while said deer was trying to cross the highway in the dark). Cracked a fiberglass skirt and smashed up a wheel cover, so we fixed the crack and pounded out the wheel cover and all was good again. But, I know he felt horrible.
If I borrow something, it WILL get returned in the same or better condition than when borrowed. We borrowed a bunch of 10'x10' pop-up canopies for our son's wedding a couple of years ago and the night before, a strong wind knocked them over. One of them ended up ripping the cover in a couple of places, so we replaced it with a new one.
They didn't want to accept it and said "It was already old, and this one is new!"
"Yep, and we appreciated you allowing us to use it, and it's our responsibility to give you this new one. Now shut up, put it in your garage, and let's have a beer."
I loaned my RV to a friend a couple of times, and a deer hit him (yeah, deer ran smack into the middle of the coach while said deer was trying to cross the highway in the dark). Cracked a fiberglass skirt and smashed up a wheel cover, so we fixed the crack and pounded out the wheel cover and all was good again. But, I know he felt horrible.
If I borrow something, it WILL get returned in the same or better condition than when borrowed. We borrowed a bunch of 10'x10' pop-up canopies for our son's wedding a couple of years ago and the night before, a strong wind knocked them over. One of them ended up ripping the cover in a couple of places, so we replaced it with a new one.
They didn't want to accept it and said "It was already old, and this one is new!"
"Yep, and we appreciated you allowing us to use it, and it's our responsibility to give you this new one. Now shut up, put it in your garage, and let's have a beer."
alaskaflyer
Final Approach
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Alaskaflyer
bdlarkin
Pre-Flight
Loaned out ours to a CFI "friend". Ended up with some hangar rash that had to be repaired. The worst was that he tried to blame it on how our hangar was set up, and that it really didn't need to be fixed anyway.
Haven't loaned it out since, current insurance policy only covers named pilots anyway, so it's moot now.
Haven't loaned it out since, current insurance policy only covers named pilots anyway, so it's moot now.
fgcason
En-Route
Nope. Not happening.
The only exception is family and then only certain ones that meet my standards regardless of what the FAA's little piece of paper implies. That's the way I was raised with the family Cherokee 180.
The same applies to ground vehicles as well - I have only one person on my insurance other than me and who has keys. No one else is covered or is allowed access.
The only exception is family and then only certain ones that meet my standards regardless of what the FAA's little piece of paper implies. That's the way I was raised with the family Cherokee 180.
The same applies to ground vehicles as well - I have only one person on my insurance other than me and who has keys. No one else is covered or is allowed access.
I try to make this my daily MO.
Boo hiss..unfortunately, this is par for the course many days.
Boo hiss..unfortunately, this is par for the course many days.
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Dr. O
Pattern Altitude
I never say never, but I am unlikely to loan out my plane, or my boat, or whatever...
The liability issue is huge when you look at our unsane legal system... No matter how good a guy he is, things maybe/can/will go wrong and you will have everything you own up for grabs to a 1-800 call slime bag... Gawd, the Cory Lidle crash is still in the courts with the slime bags grubbing for money...
Those of you who have never been sued and accused of horrible things have NO IDEA of how it changes the way you look at other people... The trust is gone - period... You can't sleep... You second guess every decision you make from then on... And even when in the end the judge throws the suit against you out of court and gives the slime bag lawyer a tongue lashing in public, the foul taste in your mouth never goes away - and the lawyer fees never come back to your pocket...
It's an old plane... Things break... If I wind up with a cracked cylinder it is because it cracked... If someone else flies it and later a cracked cylinder turns up I wonder how hot he got the cylinders in a hard climb...
Repairing things on airplanes costs in increments of 1 AMU...That ruins friendships...
If a friend needs to go flying, I offer before he even asks - and we go flying together and I pick up all the costs - my airplane, my treat...
denny-o
The liability issue is huge when you look at our unsane legal system... No matter how good a guy he is, things maybe/can/will go wrong and you will have everything you own up for grabs to a 1-800 call slime bag... Gawd, the Cory Lidle crash is still in the courts with the slime bags grubbing for money...
Those of you who have never been sued and accused of horrible things have NO IDEA of how it changes the way you look at other people... The trust is gone - period... You can't sleep... You second guess every decision you make from then on... And even when in the end the judge throws the suit against you out of court and gives the slime bag lawyer a tongue lashing in public, the foul taste in your mouth never goes away - and the lawyer fees never come back to your pocket...
It's an old plane... Things break... If I wind up with a cracked cylinder it is because it cracked... If someone else flies it and later a cracked cylinder turns up I wonder how hot he got the cylinders in a hard climb...
Repairing things on airplanes costs in increments of 1 AMU...That ruins friendships...
If a friend needs to go flying, I offer before he even asks - and we go flying together and I pick up all the costs - my airplane, my treat...
denny-o
N1347B
Pre-takeoff checklist
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Deb McFarland
PilotAlan
Pattern Altitude
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PilotAlan
Yes. But not to just anyone.
Here's my thing. My neighbor and good friend had their engine blow at a bad time. I have a work vehicle, and we loaned him out Jeep for almost two months until they could get their feet under them.
Less than a year later, the tranny blew. We needed the Jeep, so we loaned him the Jaguar for about a month.
Full disclosure, he's a fellow retired cop, got blown up in Iraq and that was the end of both his Marine and LE careers. He's trying to decide on starting a PPL. If he does, I'll give him a set of keys. He just needs to pay for the difference in insurance, fuel, and oil.
Planes are things. People are what matter.
Here's my thing. My neighbor and good friend had their engine blow at a bad time. I have a work vehicle, and we loaned him out Jeep for almost two months until they could get their feet under them.
Less than a year later, the tranny blew. We needed the Jeep, so we loaned him the Jaguar for about a month.
Full disclosure, he's a fellow retired cop, got blown up in Iraq and that was the end of both his Marine and LE careers. He's trying to decide on starting a PPL. If he does, I'll give him a set of keys. He just needs to pay for the difference in insurance, fuel, and oil.
Planes are things. People are what matter.
gkainz
Final Approach
two thumbs up, Alan.
ajstoner21
Cleared for Takeoff
Tough Question. I think if I was sole owner of a plane, I would want to try to pay it forward and help those pilots struggling to find an affordable plane.
I have rented from private owners. They set it up through an LLC and had the appropriate insurance. Which would be a must. But, I think I would want to go through the extra hoops to allow me to rent out.
I have rented from private owners. They set it up through an LLC and had the appropriate insurance. Which would be a must. But, I think I would want to go through the extra hoops to allow me to rent out.
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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iFlyNothing
The Mooney I used to fly I rented from private owners. That was the only way I would've gotten the complex time that I got prior to getting my own plane.