Do you fly beyond your means?

My Dad used to say "it is always something." He was right, by the way :).

MickYoumans said:
I fly well below my means. I originally looked at getting something like a Bo Deb 33 or Mooney. After considering the flying I would be doing (typically 200 nm or less) and the fact that I hope to retire in a few years, I wanted to have a plane that I could continue to afford in retirement. I have totally refurbished my Cherokee from top to bottom, including engine overhaul, now while I still have a good income in hopes that my retirement expenses will be relatively low.
Click to expand...

Like Mick, I also fly below my means. There is a pretty big advantage in keeping things simple.
 
Yeah, except these aren't magS. This is a mag, singular, and I'll argue that point every day and twice on Sunday. A siamese abortion. A complete perversion of the truth to put it in the same category of "wear items" as conventional mags. That's why the OP couldn't just "prepare for it".I for one am glad the OP did not have this devil betray him inflight, especially when it involves the failure of the impulse coupling or cross-contamination of FOD inside the shared housing.
 
eman1200 said:
well hot diggity.
Click to expand...

It's an awesome airplane to fly. It's a bit hard to understand how big it is until you stand next to it. It really is a baby King Air. The wingtips are roughly the same height as 172 wingtips; I can walk under them without ducking. Has a 46.5' wingspan and 3-across seating front and back.
 
bradg33 said:
It's an awesome airplane to fly. It's a bit hard to understand how big it is until you stand next to it. It really is a baby King Air. The wingtips are roughly the same height as 172 wingtips; I can walk under them without ducking. Has a 46.5' wingspan and 3-across seating front and back.
Click to expand...

It's freaking awesome. One of the best examples I've seen.
 
I actually looked at Twins before buying my Lance. Basically the same price or less than my Lance. There was no effin way I could swallow that pill though. I'd end up with "Ramp Candy" at the first annual.
 
Twelve years ago I was working a job and driving a ten year old car so I could afford to fly my 50 year old airplane. The plane was financed, but we managed to put in some upgrades (Airtech interior, audio panel, etc...) and keep ahead of the maintenance. I had the first engine failure (flying young eagles). Margy and I swallowed hard and refi'd the house to take out the money for that restoration. Subsequently, I've done pretty well, so this time when the engine turned inside out, I've got the money. It could break a lesser person however. I've already put three times the original purchase price into buying engines for this thing.

As for the T-Bone: Only thing worse than one geared Lycoming engine, is two geared Lycomings.
 
Back to the original question...I always make sure I can cover the "big" maintenance bill that hits....in other words be prepared to write a check for $10k anytime. I consider an overhaul to be a different category of expense; unlike routine maintenance that doesn't affect the value of the aircraft, much of the expense of an overhaul goes to increasing the value of the aircraft...its sort of like upgrading without the transactional costs. At least that how I can justify spending $40k on my $90k investment.
 
Brad Z said:
At least that how I can justify spending $40k on my $90k investment.
Click to expand...


Isn't that an oxymoron using the word investment whilst talking about aircraft ownership?
 
But that imposes the opportunity cost of having to eat the 1500 hours of resale value up front. Buyers will always discount your overhaul over theirs emotionally. Also, if youre selling a low time engine airplane you re likely doing so for liquidity reasons, so thats a double whammy to your likelihood of getting your so called investment back.

Rather, you could sell the airplane at a discount and get another airplane with a discounted engine and get the same hours for less total expenditure and higher liquidity for the entire period of ownership. The only reason youd put an engine on an airplane is for a forever airplane or you're so sunk on upgrades nothing on the market could replace the panel. Or youre the supertitious kind that believes a high time engine is chomping at the bit to betray you, where the statistics show its the infants and the recently opened that betray you. Your money your circus though. No wrong answer as long as you wont miss your money, sentiment which the OP seems to be struggling with, rightly so imo.

As much as enjoy the travel utility my airplane provides my little family and i in this stage of life, i still value having one foot out the door at all times when it comes to this overpriced hobby. Which is why i fly a disposable arrow versus a smithsonian curated Tbone i suppose.
 
Unit74 said:
Isn't that an oxymoron using the word investment whilst talking about aircraft ownership?
Click to expand...

These days, yes. It hasn't always been that way however, and some of the high asking prices on airplanes that are for sale are due to owners that are out of touch with airplane valuation in recent times.

My approach to the airplane market and ownership is to treat the plane similar to a car. You buy a $50k car and expect to see its value diminish to about $0 over 5-10 years. If you can afford to see the same thing happen with the plane you're in good shape.
 
mondtster said:
These days, yes. It hasn't always been that way however, and some of the high asking prices on airplanes that are for sale are due to owners that are out of touch with airplane valuation in recent times.
Click to expand...

You mean like this http://www.controller.com/listings/...ircraft/manufacturer/beechcraft/model/skipper

mondtster said:
My approach to the airplane market and ownership is to treat the plane similar to a car. You buy a $50k car and expect to see its value diminish to about $0 over 5-10 years. If you can afford to see the same thing happen with the plane you're in good shape.
Click to expand...

I will agree with this about a car, but airplane not so much... or at least from my past experience... I had PA38 that I bought in 1989 for $14K. Two years later I am into it for $30K that included an engine... but I knew going in this was going to be on the horizon... I sold the plane in 2001 for $25K when the market was pretty strong. Backing out what I made on the leaseback, and the money saved from owning v renting... I broke even..

Looking at future ownership... the partner thing is they way I am going to go to 'fly within my means."
 
mondtster said:
My approach to the airplane market and ownership is to treat the plane similar to a car. You buy a $50k car and expect to see its value diminish to about $0 over 5-10 years.
Click to expand...

If you pick the right car, they go back up again when they hit the ~20-25 year old mark.
 
Ventucky Red said:
You mean like this http://www.controller.com/listings/...ircraft/manufacturer/beechcraft/model/skipper



I will agree with this about a car, but airplane not so much... or at least from my past experience... I had PA38 that I bought in 1989 for $14K. Two years later I am into it for $30K that included an engine... but I knew going in this was going to be on the horizon... I sold the plane in 2001 for $25K when the market was pretty strong. Backing out what I made on the leaseback, and the money saved from owning v renting... I broke even..

Looking at future ownership... the partner thing is they way I am going to go to 'fly within my means."
Click to expand...

Wow...that skipper.... when your avionics are worth twice as much as your airframe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I agree that flying can be expensive at times. I try to do it as efficiently as I can, but I'm one of those who don't add up all of the costs. Don't want to know. I'm sure I could take my aviation budget and put it into my 401K and be "financially better off" later. On the other hand, I'm in my 50's and I can still enjoy going up for a weekend flight or taking a friend on a flightseeing tour, or flying on a 500 mile weekend vacation I would never consider doing if I had to drive. Is an extra $175K in my retirement accounts when I'm 78 worth giving up my wings now? Not for this guy. You have to have reasons to get up in the morning. Flying is one of mine. :)
 
edo2000 said:
I agree that flying can be expensive at times. I try to do it as efficiently as I can, but I'm one of those who don't add up all of the costs. Don't want to know. I'm sure I could take my aviation budget and put it into my 401K and be "financially better off" later. On the other hand, I'm in my 50's and I can still enjoy going up for a weekend flight or taking a friend on a flightseeing tour, or flying on a 500 mile weekend vacation I would never consider doing if I had to drive. Is an extra $175K in my retirement accounts when I'm 78 worth giving up my wings now? Not for this guy. You have to have reasons to get up in the morning. Flying is one of mine. :)
Click to expand...
:yeahthat:
Well said. One of the most common questions I get asked is how much it costs to own and fly an airplane. Non-pilots ask in general, pilots ask how much per hour. I always answer something like, "don't make me do the math, I don't want to know".
 
We usually explain our aviation expenses like this to people. Do you try to justify the expense of owning a boat? Or a motorcycle? What about the families that have to buy the new Suburban every other year? Yes aviation is an expensive hobby, but I don't feel the need to justify the cost. And I don't bother adding it up either, because I don't want to know, and whatever it is, is totally worth it.
 
Tampico Trauma said:
Wow...that skipper.... when your avionics are worth twice as much as your airframe.
Click to expand...

I am coming up with $45K.. One would think the seller would put some descent photos up if they really wanted to sell it..

"Honey... I know you told me to get rid of the plane, but no one called to show an interest. Guess I just have to keep it another couple of years."
 
edo2000 said:
I agree that flying can be expensive at times. I try to do it as efficiently as I can, but I'm one of those who don't add up all of the costs. Don't want to know. I'm sure I could take my aviation budget and put it into my 401K and be "financially better off" later. On the other hand, I'm in my 50's and I can still enjoy going up for a weekend flight or taking a friend on a flightseeing tour, or flying on a 500 mile weekend vacation I would never consider doing if I had to drive. Is an extra $175K in my retirement accounts when I'm 78 worth giving up my wings now? Not for this guy. You have to have reasons to get up in the morning. Flying is one of mine. :)
Click to expand...
Exactly.
 
Unit74 said:
Right now I budget about $1500/mo for the plane and all expenses. When I get drilled with a big bill, I end up not flying that month or so. I hate letting her sit. When I had my Archer, I really didn't give a chit about the bills. When I stepped into this Lance, my expenses basically tripled and I was not anticipating that. Love the plane, but she bleeding me dry.
Click to expand...

Time to sell. What is your real mission? Sounds like you bought beyond your needs.
 
I am about the same boat as the original poster. I am probably about on the threshold of whether I can afford to have a plane or not. If I didn't have a family, a lake cabin, gun collection, etc. it would probably be better but since I have so many hobbies it is kind of frivolous me having a plane.

Last year I put 10.5hrs on it. Came out to be about $1000 per hour:eek:

If my engine needed an overhaul I would have to go to the bank its financed at and add a couple years to my loan I suppose. I could come up with the $15-18k needed also if I had to but it would involve selling stuff, which isn't the end of the world.

My brother has his plane parked right next to mine, he put around 10hrs on his last year too and figured $300/hr. Only difference is I had to get a loan for part of my plane and he did not otherwise it would be the same. Yes, we've thought about selling one and splitting the other but don't think it will work. He doesn't like my plane for whatever reason and it is worth about $10,000 more than his. We both have families also and work close to the same schedule so it would be a pain to own one together.
 
Wow! Only 10 hrs per year. That is not good for the engine.
 
fudge80 said:
I am about the same boat as the original poster. I am probably about on the threshold of whether I can afford to have a plane or not. If I didn't have a family, a lake cabin, gun collection, etc. it would probably be better but since I have so many hobbies it is kind of frivolous me having a plane.

Last year I put 10.5hrs on it. Came out to be about $1000 per hour:eek:

If my engine needed an overhaul I would have to go to the bank its financed at and add a couple years to my loan I suppose. I could come up with the $15-18k needed also if I had to but it would involve selling stuff, which isn't the end of the world.

My brother has his plane parked right next to mine, he put around 10hrs on his last year too and figured $300/hr. Only difference is I had to get a loan for part of my plane and he did not otherwise it would be the same. Yes, we've thought about selling one and splitting the other but don't think it will work. He doesn't like my plane for whatever reason and it is worth about $10,000 more than his. We both have families also and work close to the same schedule so it would be a pain to own one together.
Click to expand...
You guys are both wrecking your engines. You'd probably only get half of what you think they're worth if you sold, at least to knowledgeable buyer.
 
Unit74 said:
Right now I budget about $1500/mo for the plane and all expenses. When I get drilled with a big bill, I end up not flying that month or so. I hate letting her sit. When I had my Archer, I really didn't give a chit about the bills. When I stepped into this Lance, my expenses basically tripled and I was not anticipating that. Love the plane, but she bleeding me dry.
Click to expand...
Tripled? Why? It only burns a few more GPH than an Archer. Sure you have the RG and a couple extra cylinders, but for 3x OPEX you should be flying a Twinco or maybe a Seneca.
 
paflyer said:
You guys are both wrecking your engines. You'd probably only get half of what you think they're worth if you sold, at least to knowledgeable buyer.
Click to expand...

It's a 1978 airplane with 1500hrs on the engine which was last overhauled in 1983.

I had this conversation about low usage being bad for the engine with the guy that did the annual last week. He didn't seem to think it was a concern when I asked about it. Only place I've ever seen talk about it being bad is on here actually.
 
fudge80 said:
It's a 1978 airplane with 1500hrs on the engine which was last overhauled in 1983.

I had this conversation about low usage being bad for the engine with the guy that did the annual last week. He didn't seem to think it was a concern when I asked about it. Only place I've ever seen talk about it being bad is on here actually.
Click to expand...

When he did the annual did he scope any of the cylinders? And if he did, did you have a look at the pictures?
If not, I'd take what he says with a healthy degree of scepticism.

If you would like an informed opinion apart from whatever you read on this forum, suggest you read any of the voluminous materials on the subject published by both Continental and Lycoming over the decades.
 
GRG55 said:
Based on that criteria most of us should also sell our spouse and kids too. ;)
Click to expand...
You can sell a spouse ????? How much can I get for a lightly used vintage hanger queen ?????. Could use the money to fly !!.
 
GRG55 said:
When he did the annual did he scope any of the cylinders? And if he did, did you have a look at the pictures?
If not, I'd take what he says with a healthy degree of scepticism.

If you would like an informed opinion apart from whatever you read on this forum, suggest you read any of the voluminous materials on the subject published by both Continental and Lycoming over the decades.
Click to expand...

I was just googling that now, didn't find much definitive. I know the issue is corrosion but I haven't found much about it really. What is the magic number for hours roughly? 50, 100? The plan was to fly 50-100 hours a year but no matter what it is going to sit all winter in the unheated hangar, many because when its cold as it is here from Nov-Mar I don't really want to go fight preheating, snow, ice, etc.
 
fudge80 said:
It's a 1978 airplane with 1500hrs on the engine which was last overhauled in 1983.

I had this conversation about low usage being bad for the engine with the guy that did the annual last week. He didn't seem to think it was a concern when I asked about it. Only place I've ever seen talk about it being bad is on here actually.
Click to expand...
A 34 year old overhaul, it's hardly run, and the AP isn't concerned? Is he a beneficiary? :confused:
 
paflyer said:
A 34 year old overhaul, it's hardly run, and the AP isn't concerned? Is he a beneficiary? :confused:
Click to expand...

I guess its possible he took a life insurance policy out on me without me knowing...
 
fudge80 said:
I was just googling that now, didn't find much definitive. I know the issue is corrosion but I haven't found much about it really. What is the magic number for hours roughly? 50, 100? The plan was to fly 50-100 hours a year but no matter what it is going to sit all winter in the unheated hangar, many because when its cold as it is here from Nov-Mar I don't really want to go fight preheating, snow, ice, etc.
Click to expand...

It's not total hours in the year, but regular frequency of flying the plane - bringing the engine up to operating temperature for a sufficient period of time to circulate the oil and convert to vapour the water from condensation in it.

I live in a high altitude, relatively dry climate. Around here we generally use as a guideline flying the airplane for at least 30 minutes every two weeks. If you are going to lay up the airplane for the winter there is a relatively straight forward method recommended by the manufacturer to preserve your engine. All of the engine service bulletins for both Lycoming and Continental are online. That's where you will find detailed information.
 
Based on everything I have read and been told, the magic number is about 50 hours a year. Not in two or three big chunks, but about an hour a week minimum. Not only the engine, but the gyros, radios, and airframe all need regular exercise. I don't like to let ours sit for more than about a week if I can help it.
 
If had to pay for the work done on my plane it would really hurt my bank account.

I have an A&P certificate but am not an IA. I have a local IA inspect the plane for annuals and I do all repairs and servicing. I paid cash for my 74 baby Beech B19 20 years ago, and know it inside and out. Their are other planes I would love to own and fly, but 60R is paid for and well maintained. Operating costs are not bad.

My B19 Sport is slow, underpowered, but comfortable to fly.
 
paflyer said:
Tripled? Why? It only burns a few more GPH than an Archer. Sure you have the RG and a couple extra cylinders, but for 3x OPEX you should be flying a Twinco or maybe a Seneca.
Click to expand...

A lot of things keep popping up. Both in board tanks leaking, gear wouldn't retract, mag overhaul, electric trim broke, and some options such as new transponder, New audio panel, and have a SAM in the box waiting for installation.
 
Rcmutz said:
Time to sell. What is your real mission? Sounds like you bought beyond your needs.
Click to expand...


4 pax plus me on a regular basis. Not too many low budget options. I just bought last May.
 
Unit74 said:
I broke my plane today. Based on what I know, I'm expecting a $2k bill or worse. I was planning on having a GPSS installed soon and all I'm waiting on is one more part for the installation. That's on hold now. That got me thinking.....

How many pilots who own a plane, if something major went wrong, could they afford to fix it? I can take the small hits, but if I needed an overhaul today, I'd be screwed. I cannot afford a $40k bank dump. I'd have to steal it all from my retirement at I'm sure would be a throat lumping penalty.

I feel like I'm living a rich mans life on a Mac and cheese budget. It scares me sometimes.
Click to expand...

That's part of the reason I got out of owning. I do miss it sometimes though. I put about $20K worth of upgrades into the plane before I sold it and while I definitely sold it for more than I bought it, I did take a loss.

My mission changed though from me and a couple family members to just me and maybe one other person. So a two-seater 150 or other low-end plane would be right up my alley. And, maybe even possible at the end of this year if I play my cards right :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top