Do we need another military branch?

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by mscard88, Aug 10, 2018.

  1. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    You and Ron apparently share that sentiment.

    “I want a pony. I think taxpayers should be shouldered with at least ten trillion of debt for my pony. He eats a lot.”
     
  2. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

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    Pearl Harbor is a good metaphor; a case of disaster due to the unwillingness to extrapolate. The ironic thing is that the intelligence was there, but the people who really needed to know weren't told because the intell was too sensitive.

    So if a bullet costs $2, and you give a soldier $2, it's his fault for not buying two bullets instead of one? Gotcha.

    The issue is budgets. Congress and the President establish them, and the DOD and services decide how to allocate the dough.

    Dude...jamming. The bad guys build a rack of those same HF radios and fill the airwaves with garbage. It's easy. During WWII, they'd install microphones next to aircraft engines and transmit the noise.

    I've read it, you haven't. I felt it was very credible, especially when they reprinted open-source material from the countries in question where they explained exactly what they intended to do.

    Waaaaay too late to argue against the militarization of space. Russians had anti-satellite systems in the 70s, we had one in the '80s. We don't have one anymore; the Chinese do. Actually makes sense; our potential adversaries are not as dependent on space as we are.

    Modern warfare is economic. Imagine an adversary knocking off ALL US communications satellites. One thing that'd happen is that all the credit card verification systems quit working. We're knocked back to a cash economy overnight, and the ATMs would be significantly hosed as well.

    The question is, would the US go to war if no persons are injured in the attack? If no territory is seized? I'm guessing not. There's be a harsh letter from the Secretary of State. That'll scare them.

    Ironically, since the President wants to "drain the swamp," Space Force would be an excellent opportunity to demonstrate a non-traditional structure that would eliminate the features of current organizations that he seems to dislike. Kinda think it's not going to happen, though.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  3. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

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    No, my opinion is if you're going to buy someone a pony, you should establish a budget and let THEM pick out the pony that fits their needs. If they need a draft horse to pull a beer cart, DON'T give them a guinea pig because you have to buy a silver-chased saddle for your race horse and you want to save money in case gold-tasseled halters go on sale.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  4. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    ya but....you can't handle a pony. :eek:
     
  5. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Whomever has the capability to take out the satellites, has the capability to wage nuclear war. If that’s the case, then it really doesn’t matter if the satellites are taken out.

    Flown in 2 different wars and while satellites are a primary means of NAV / com, they’re by no means a mission requirement. I operated in Iraq on more than one occasion with INS because of no GPS signal and HF was a daily thing. If HF went out, then revert to FM with obviously a much shorter range. Yep, MIJI is always a possibility but every combat unit trains to operate with backups. Theater commanders can still operate autonomously with fiber optic / wireless, MARS, during wartime operations. Orders will still find a way to get to subordinate units.

    As a former tactical controller, running the air war doesn’t require satellites either.

     
  6. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    But there are technologies like ballistic missle defense that needs further upgrades. That technology can be used either offensively or defensively.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
  7. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

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    It really depends on whether one side or the other is willing to go nuclear, first. If a US ally is assaulted with a large conventional attack, the US is not likely to reply with nuclear weapons. It then becomes an old-fashioned slugfest, with the US at a significant disadvantage due to being locally outnumbered with long, vulnerable, logistics and C&C links.

    Tactically, no, but strategically, yes. The satellites are needed to keep the intelligence flowing and run the war itself, not the local combats.

    A sample scenario would be a strike on communications and intelligence capabilities, followed up by a massive attack on a US carrier group. The carrier group would no doubt do a good job of defending itself, but they're not likely to do anything retaliatory without POTUS direction...which the satellite strike would make far, far more difficult to receive, and the lack of updated intelligence would mean the mobile targets would no longer be where you thought they were.
    [​IMG]
    Over the years, space had made things too easy...too easy to communicate, too easy to navigate, etc. One of the things I'd been involved with over the years are TACSATs; intelligence collectors that can be used directly by local commanders vs. delivering the take in the CONUS and having it process/filtered by non-combat agencies. Studied a lot, never went anywhere. It's not just the empire builders in the CONUS who wanted to retain the status quo; the field commanders didn't want "one more damn trailer."

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  8. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Everyone has vulnerable communications. Whether it’s satellites, fiber optics, cell, radio (MARS) etc. all of that can / would be affected on both sides. It’s not like the enemy has outwitted us with cups and string. They’d be at just as much of a disadvantage.

    Also, do you really think that our military is going to sit silent after an attack because they’re waiting in orders from the NCA? Each theater CINC can operate autonomously and if attacked, has the authority to retaliate. Self defense is always allowed in the use of deadly force IAW the ROE.
     
  9. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    LOL, I recognize that burn. Navy Reserve and their invol IA, non-primary job MOB nonsense is losing more people than a Nickelback myspace page. To be fair, we started some of that BS over the AFRC side of the house, in the middle of the biggest airline hiring binge since Clinton. Absolute bonehead standard from the Pinocchios at the puzzle palace. Oh well, I'm just back here sitting watching the place burn. I'm not even airline bound and I haven't signed the current 35K/yr pilot bonus, AS A RESERVIST! That's how ridiculously unstable things have got. Hell, I might still quit the way they're running me ragged attached to Active Duty these days. Leave it to the DoD to drop a turd on what should be the coolest job in the world. They truly can eff up a two car funeral....
     
  10. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

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    No, their communications issues would be a lot less. Typical scenarios have stuff happening off adversary's coast, not ours. Short range communications would be less affected...shoot, they could have a man with a set of semaphore flags on a headland. The bad guys have a much shorter distance to their NCA, and a LOS comm relay would be simple to set up.

    Besides, if we assume the other side is the aggressor, they have no communications issues. Ensure everyone knows what to do, then take out the US comm and recce birds. Even if the US reciprocates before the attack actually hits, the only thing eliminated is the ability for the aggressor to cancel the ongoing strike.

    I'm not referring to self-defense. I'm referring to the ability to approve and plan a retaliatory strike. Simply put, the ability to respond with actions to WIN the war the other guy started.

    Consider a US carrier group in the South China Sea. Comm is lost with NCA. Suddenly the fleet is swarmed with anti-ship missiles. Radar tracks show them as coming from the direction of China, but the fleet is too far out to see where they were actually launched from. So the task group gets chewed up. Where do they retaliate against? What ports? What cities? Attacking any land target is going to produce massive collateral damage, especially in a densely-populated country like China.

    And do the guys in the fleet *really* know it's China?

    No doubt ROEs can be updated based on the current threat situation, but I have trouble believing they'd allow land strikes without direct, incontrovertible evidence that the specific land targets were the bases used in the attack. Hence the need for survivable intelligence systems and communications to the CONUS.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
  11. LoLPilot

    LoLPilot Line Up and Wait

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    I'd like to see half of that money taken to revitalize NASA's manned space exploration program.
     
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  12. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    And again, you’re assuming that the NCA has anything to do with a response. CINCs aren’t going to require the NCA approval for a self defense or an offensive strike against the aggressor. Most of those comms will be on a tactical level. Yes, they’ll still be affected but not as much as you appear to make them in your scenarios. Our highly motivated, educated officers aren’t robots. They’re not going to stand around twiddling their thumbs because the “head of the snake is cut off.” In absence of higher authority, use best judgment.

    Comm / NAV sats if elimated (highly unlikely in MEO distances) would only affect strategic ops. Even then, they’d have backups. If the war stays conventional, then intel would still go on based on tactical ISR (U-2, MC-12, RC-7 yada yada). Tactical decisions based on ROE will be delegated down to commanders at the lowest level. That’s just common sense. Heck, on a tactical level, If I were flying into a high threat environment, the last thing I’m worried about is satellites being operational. My NAV is internal, my comms are secure, and I’d have a paper map on my kneeboard to get me to the LZ when the aforementioned tech fails. All I’m worried about in that scenario are the SA-16s / S-300s looking to blow my *** out of the sky and having enough gas to get home.

    Your China scenarios leave a lot of “ifs” out of it. First, if they’re ballistic why didn’t SBIRS detect the launch? If it’s aerial, why didn’t E-2 / shipboard radar detect the launch. Finally, if they’re enough to overcome missile defense (CIWS / RIM) to elimate the battle group, well that kinda narrows down what country they came from.

    So we could come up with scenarios all day long about how the enemy could find ways to restrict our ability to wage war. The fact is, eliminating sats won’t be our Achilles heel. We will regroup and retaliate. That retaliation could very well be nukes (Minuteman & Trident) that use INS to hit their targets. God help us if it ever comes to that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
  13. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The imaging satellites do not belong to a military service. The National Reconnaissance Office is part of the DoD as a separate agency. It's been in my career in intelligence that you could even say NRO in a public forum. They used not to officially exist. This was sort of screwed up after a couple of unfortunate events. One was them having TRW front for them a new headquarters built too close to a major road (Virginia Rt. 28) which led people to wonder what was going on there and why weren't they paying property tax. The second was a congressional insight as to why they had something like $1 Bililion sitting around (this was their "insurance" in case they had a launch failure and had to act quickly).

    Amazingly, just about everything Trump thinks we need a space force is already being done by one of the military services or one of the intelligence services. Of course, no intelligence officer wants to tell Trump anything since the man is a massive security hole waiting to happen.
     
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  14. spiderweb

    spiderweb Final Approach

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    It is important for America to be first, and to be the coolest.
     
  15. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    please don't confuse defense....with R&D projects. Totally different mission....not even close.
     
  16. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Nope....it's part of a plan to mess with China and Russia....much like Reagan did with SDI.
     
  17. X3 Skier

    X3 Skier En-Route PoA Supporter

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    If anybody thinks Space Cadets will be effective in getting a bigger piece of the pie than Space is getting now, I have a tale told to me by a couple of Congressmen and staffers a number of times back when I was in the Acquisition Biz.

    Budget hearings/appropriations sort of go like this:

    Marines come in and say, “We want a bunch of planes, tanks, weapons and other stuff”. Congress, “Sure”

    Navy comes in and say, “We want some ships, subs, planes and a bunch of other stuff”. Congress “ Are you sure?” Navy, “Damn Right!” Congress “ok”

    Air Force comes in and says “We want a bunch of planes, some space stuff and other gizmos”. Congress “ Are you sure?” USAF, “We’ll do a study” Congress “ok”. USAF comes back and says, “ Our studies say we were right.” Congress says “ok”

    Army comes in and says “We want a bunch of tanks, some helos, big guns, Trucks and stuff”. Congress “ Are you sure?” Army says, “Not really, Ok, what will you give us?”

    Don’t see that changing much.

    Cheers
     
  18. LoLPilot

    LoLPilot Line Up and Wait

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    I know that. The idea of space exploration was that we left the idiotic quabbling here. We didn't take it beyond Earth orbit. This is exemplified in the plaque left on the moon and the Outer Space Treaty. While Apollo 11 left an American flag on the moon to signify which country made that achievement the plaque they left read "here men from the planet Earth first set foot upon the moon July 1969, AD. We came in peace for all mankind." It doesn't get much more clear than that. The Outer Space Treaty bars codifies this and bars participant countries from placing weapons of mass destruction in space. I think we should honor those ideals and leave our space missions to R&D.
     
  19. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Let's let the Billionares do that....I don't want my tax dollars going for tang and velcro.
     
  20. LoLPilot

    LoLPilot Line Up and Wait

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    I'd much rather my tax dollars go to Tang and Velcro than Base no 801.
     
  21. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

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    They're not bad, if you add scotch.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
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  22. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Full disclosure....I was a SDI gummint support contractor for launch vehicle T&E in the basement E ring of the Pentagon for SDI in the 90's. ;)
     
  23. LoLPilot

    LoLPilot Line Up and Wait

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    Cool job, but ok?
     
  24. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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  25. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Okay. Looks like the budget is -22T. Get back to me when you’ve figured out how to pay that off and they can have “a budget”.

    You know what you do with a business manager you’ve hired who runs your business to 22T in debt by buying world class toys? You tell him two very simple words.

    “You’re fired.”
     
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  26. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    In personal finance, that’s called “the road to bankruptcy”.
     
  27. spiderweb

    spiderweb Final Approach

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    But we're the richest country in the world. We HAVE to be the coolest, too!
     
  28. LoLPilot

    LoLPilot Line Up and Wait

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  29. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    My wife worked on the "Peacekeeper" missile (MX). That thing was incredible, everyone of the 10 places one of those missiles landed would have become very peaceful after things cooled down.
     
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  30. spiderweb

    spiderweb Final Approach

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    It’s the American way!
     
  31. Shepherd

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    I'm in. Where do I sign up?
    I don't care how much it costs. I want to be the guy at the top of the gravity well with the pile of rocks, not the guy at the bottom getting blasted to smithereens.
    That is what ALL military is about, being the guy on top.
     
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  32. timwinters

    timwinters Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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  33. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The more choices we have the more they will have to compete. And that will force them all to be more efficient and cost effective.