Do these make good first twins

Older 310B I think, I'm not as familiar as I am with later models. Good flying and fun airplanes. Engines times look good, as operators usually have a high time engine and the other a low time engine so they don't have two overhauls going at the same time. I'd say IF you could get it for $38K it's a great deal, but I suspect the reserve is higher.

@Ted DuPuis may know more about this model year.
 
Not sure I would go with an older 310 as a starter first twin,would go for a beech Travelair,or a piper Apache Geronimo. The price on the 310 seems to be in the ballpark.
 
The 310 has finicky landing gear and needs lots of love to work properly. A friend has one and tells me they basically rerig the gear at every annual.

The rest of the plane is bullet proof, I personally love 310's.

I think a better first twin might be a 55 Baron though.
 
Man the light twin market is soooooo depressed, it’s amazing.

Yes. Never really recovered from the 08/09 financial crisis time period. Only exception is it seems recent training demand is gradually pushing up the price of used Senecas and Seminoles. I still regularly see Barons with asking prices well below comparable vintage/hours/less well equipped A-36 Bonanzas.
 
The 310 has finicky landing gear and needs lots of love to work properly. A friend has one and tells me they basically rerig the gear at every annual.

The rest of the plane is bullet proof, I personally love 310's.

I think a better first twin might be a 55 Baron though.

imo what constitutes a "good" first twin is partly determined by what kind of singles the owner/pilot was flying prior. There's a big difference between a pilot like me who stepped up from a series of single Pipers and someone who's been flying something with much higher performance like a Mooney Ultra or Lancair.
 
Yes. Never really recovered from the 08/09 financial crisis time period. Only exception is it seems recent training demand is gradually pushing up the price of used Senecas and Seminoles. I still regularly see Barons with asking prices well below comparable vintage/hours/less well equipped A-36 Bonanzas.

Seeing similar here too. One of the problems is that unless you’ve convinced yourself your risk margin truly needs that second engine, some of the really light twins don’t perform much better than singles.

Paying for double the fuel to go 10-15 knots faster just doesn’t make much sense. Unless you really need to not have an engine out landing on whatever nastiness you fly over below is, or you’re flying a ton in the dark.

I really want to convince myself I’ll own a light twin as a personal aircraft someday, but I just don’t see it making any economic sense. Airplanes in general often don’t, but some twins push the boundaries of “wasting money boring holes in the sky”.

Current and proficient, they’re a great tool. Losing an engine on the right twin for the mission can be only a “fly to an airport and land” emergency instead of a “hope this field isn’t muddy or have hidden boulders in it” moment. But it’s hard to justify it any other way.

The demand for the trainers will stay up there. Lots of hiring and lots of people wanting to do their first multi. (Even me. And the ME CFI, but damned if I know yet what I’ll do with it.)

Talked to the owner of one of the Technam twins the other day. The fuel burn on those is obviously much much much lower than most light twins. 100 HP rotax a side will do that. The acquisition cost is steep though.
 
imo what constitutes a "good" first twin is partly determined by what kind of singles the owner/pilot was flying prior. There's a big difference between a pilot like me who stepped up from a series of single Pipers and someone who's been flying something with much higher performance like a Mooney Ultra or Lancair.
My reply is from a purely reliability point of view. With proper training a competent pilot can be safe and comfortable flying just about anything.
 
My reply is from a purely reliability point of view. With proper training a competent pilot can be safe and comfortable flying just about anything.
Except when flying over the Everglades or Lake Michigan.
 
I was hoping this would be approached as a maintenance issues, are these the double barreled wallet deflators as most twins are?
 
I was hoping this would be approached as a maintenance issues, are these the double barreled wallet deflators as most twins are?

I spent $350/hr all in to run my 310R flying 200+ hrs/year for two years. That includes a top on one engine due to the ECI fiasco, but did not include the cost of capital. That was for a “nothing deferred and keep it right” mx program, $200/mo hangar, and $4k/yr in insurance.
 
I think the perfect first twin is dictated by what you intend to use it for. If you are just using it to train and build hours you would be much better off with a 4 cyl model. If you want an efficient 4 place hauler with the added safety of the extra engine the 310 or Baron are hard to beat. If you need to haul a load the Aztec would be the ideal choice.
 
Man the light twin market is soooooo depressed, it’s amazing.

Yes and no. The early model 310s like this one have not done well market wise for longer than I’ve been a pilot.

Some other twins like well cared for Barons and even some good later 310s are doing better.
 
The 310 has finicky landing gear and needs lots of love to work properly. A friend has one and tells me they basically rerig the gear at every annual.

It's a lot more reliable than the stories would lead you to believe. In the 1,000 hours or so that I operated the 310 I never had the gear re-rigged. They checked it at annual, but didn't do the full re-rigging procedure. I never had an issue with the gear. It always went up, always went down. Yes, it requires a stronger look at than say an Aztec or a Baron and the Twin Cessna gear isn't as tough (I would be more careful where I land a 310 than an Aztec), but it's not as fragile as everyone makes it out to be. Mostly the people who brake it are people who have poor taxi technique and do high side loads while turning, from what I can tell.

I was hoping this would be approached as a maintenance issues, are these the double barreled wallet deflators as most twins are?

That one is listed as a 310C, which sounds right. So it should have early IO-470 engines, which are pretty bulletproof. The 3-bladed props means it shouldn't have the prop AD. Hours aren't bad on the engines or on the airframe. Given that, the major expense to be concerned with on that plane is going to be the combustion heater, those have issues.

If operated correctly, you could probably get the all-in expenses on that plane at around $250/hr. Depends on how you run it and how you maintain it. The other question is what items have been deferred by previous owners.

A 310 is a very good first twin. That said, one of the reasons the old ones like this are so much cheaper is because the newer ones have a bigger cabin, wing lockers, etc. etc. These are cheaper to buy because they're harder to sell.
 
It's a lot more reliable than the stories would lead you to believe. In the 1,000 hours or so that I operated the 310 I never had the gear re-rigged. They checked it at annual, but didn't do the full re-rigging procedure. I never had an issue with the gear. It always went up, always went down. Yes, it requires a stronger look at than say an Aztec or a Baron and the Twin Cessna gear isn't as tough (I would be more careful where I land a 310 than an Aztec), but it's not as fragile as everyone makes it out to be. Mostly the people who brake it are people who have poor taxi technique and do high side loads while turning, from what I can tell.



That one is listed as a 310C, which sounds right. So it should have early IO-470 engines, which are pretty bulletproof. The 3-bladed props means it shouldn't have the prop AD. Hours aren't bad on the engines or on the airframe. Given that, the major expense to be concerned with on that plane is going to be the combustion heater, those have issues.

If operated correctly, you could probably get the all-in expenses on that plane at around $250/hr. Depends on how you run it and how you maintain it. The other question is what items have been deferred by previous owners.

A 310 is a very good first twin. That said, one of the reasons the old ones like this are so much cheaper is because the newer ones have a bigger cabin, wing lockers, etc. etc. These are cheaper to buy because they're harder to sell.
That's good to hear and what I've been told as well. What is the big no no braking while turning?
 
That's good to hear and what I've been told as well. What is the big no no braking while turning?

Basically comes down to minimizing stresses on the gear. Turning while fast creates significant side loads, and braking while turning will create more of those side loads. Rule with a Twin Cessna is brake in a straight line (and there's nothing wrong with hard braking in a straight line - all those forces line up well for the structural points of the gear). But then come to a very slow speed before turning. You should never feel any lateral Gs in a Twin Cessna - it's not a Miata. :)

I've seen some pilots, even experienced ones, who completely ignore this recommendation. Not smart.
 
Basically comes down to minimizing stresses on the gear. Turning while fast creates significant side loads, and braking while turning will create more of those side loads. Rule with a Twin Cessna is brake in a straight line (and there's nothing wrong with hard braking in a straight line - all those forces line up well for the structural points of the gear). But then come to a very slow speed before turning. You should never feel any lateral Gs in a Twin Cessna - it's not a Miata. :)

I've seen some pilots, even experienced ones, who completely ignore this recommendation. Not smart.

Applies to all planes IMO. Got onto a student last weekend who attempted to turn off way too fast.
 
Applies to all planes IMO. Got onto a student last weekend who attempted to turn off way too fast.

I agree that it's just proper piloting technique. With that said, Twin Cessnas do seem more susceptible to gear collapses when this is not followed. By comparison, I don't think you could possibly hurt an Aztec doing that.
 
@mscard88 beat me to it. Shouldn’t be turning and stopping like that in anything... it’s just hard on stuff. All sorts of older retracts get expensive to fix very fast when handled like that. ;)
 
@mscard88 beat me to it. Shouldn’t be turning and stopping like that in anything... it’s just hard on stuff. All sorts of older retracts get expensive to fix very fast when handled like that. ;)

You clearly have no Aztec time. I thought everyone on PoA knew about the time @tonycondon flew my Aztec through a lake? Was picking grass out of the gear for 6 months but in the subsequent 900 hours or so of flying it never had an issue.
 
You clearly have no Aztec time. I thought everyone on PoA knew about the time @tonycondon flew my Aztec through a lake? Was picking grass out of the gear for 6 months but in the subsequent 900 hours or so of flying it never had an issue.

I gotta admit that must be the easiest way to wash the underside of an Aztec I've ever heard of... :D
 
Basically comes down to minimizing stresses on the gear. Turning while fast creates significant side loads, and braking while turning will create more of those side loads. Rule with a Twin Cessna is brake in a straight line (and there's nothing wrong with hard braking in a straight line - all those forces line up well for the structural points of the gear). But then come to a very slow speed before turning. You should never feel any lateral Gs in a Twin Cessna - it's not a Miata. :)

I've seen some pilots, even experienced ones, who completely ignore this recommendation. Not smart.

So you're saying doing scandinavian flicks in them is not smart?
 
You clearly have no Aztec time. I thought everyone on PoA knew about the time @tonycondon flew my Aztec through a lake? Was picking grass out of the gear for 6 months but in the subsequent 900 hours or so of flying it never had an issue.

LOL the Aztruck is an outlier. And no, no time flying them but have been a passenger. Quite a tank.

Honestly if one could afford the gas and didn’t care about that part, they seem to be workhorses.

The one I flew in had been rode hard and put away wet for a lot of years. I hope they didn’t ride it so hard that it had to be scrapped when the engines came due.

But it flew. Let’s just say it wouldn’t have had much “market appeal” in the private ownership market. Ha.
 
LOL the Aztruck is an outlier. And no, no time flying them but have been a passenger. Quite a tank.

Honestly if one could afford the gas and didn’t care about that part, they seem to be workhorses.

The one I flew in had been rode hard and put away wet for a lot of years. I hope they didn’t ride it so hard that it had to be scrapped when the engines came due.

But it flew. Let’s just say it wouldn’t have had much “market appeal” in the private ownership market. Ha.

If run LOP, Aztecs aren't that bad. I generally got 21 GPH combined for ~155 KTAS with mine when I had it. Now, a 470-powered 310 burning 20 GPH would be doing about 10-15 KTAS faster, but a noticeably smaller cabin.

An Aztec makes more sense if you want the larger cabin and the speed won't impact your mission as much.
 
If run LOP, Aztecs aren't that bad. I generally got 21 GPH combined for ~155 KTAS with mine when I had it. Now, a 470-powered 310 burning 20 GPH would be doing about 10-15 KTAS faster, but a noticeably smaller cabin.

An Aztec makes more sense if you want the larger cabin and the speed won't impact your mission as much.

Yup. I get it. That’s back to the problem of twice the fuel for 15 knots though. Our long term average on the 182 (which also isn’t speedy!) is 11.5 GPH being based at altitude.

Unrelated to this discussion the one mission my airplane can’t do that we would find useful or at least entertaining is carry Karen’s entire barbershop quartet, all their stuff, and their pilot (me) somewhere.

Considering they get arguments from people trying to hire them who want free performances or that $200 is too high for four performers for half a day, I don’t think the screaming fans will be seeing them depart on the Jet anytime soon. LOL.
 
Air stair. Cabin class. Salable.

Navajo.
 
Another thing about buying an airplane like this is that you may wind up being its final owner. People who have the money and need/desire to operate a twin usually want a nicer one.

Here's a 421 for Skyhawk money. The problem with it is that the first year's operating cost could exceed its purchase price.

There are a number of older airplanes that are reaching the point where few people will want them, and I suspect 60 year old 310s are in this group.
 
Cabin class piston twins are great first twins if you don't mind spending $40-100k/year on a plane.
 
Don't many Cessna Twins have a nasty AD on the wing spar?
 
If run LOP, Aztecs aren't that bad. I generally got 21 GPH combined for ~155 KTAS with mine when I had it. Now, a 470-powered 310 burning 20 GPH would be doing about 10-15 KTAS faster, but a noticeably smaller cabin.

An Aztec makes more sense if you want the larger cabin and the speed won't impact your mission as much.

That's pretty well exactly what I see for fuel and TAS in mine. If the extra 10 knots is absolutely required the Aztec will give it to you, but as you know the price is 26 gph.

The big cabin is something I would have great difficulty giving up now. I feel cramped sitting in a Baron.
 
Back
Top