Do I need to keep Superceded WB and other info in POH?

[Nick Geber]

I just purchased a new plane - a 1994 Mooney Ovation. The POH (which is also the AFM) has a bunch of old W&B sheets from previous equipment upgrades. The aircraft was weighed in 2019 and a new W&B sheet issued. Do I need to keep the old W&B sheets in the POH? Also, there’s a bunch of AFM supplements for avionics that have been replaced. I’m assuming I don’t need to keep these in the POH but you never know…. Does anyone have some insight?

 

[MauleSkinner]

I’d leave all of the W&Bs in the POH…I’ve had that save me more than once when I realized there was an error in the current data.

Supplements for equipment that has been removed are largely dead weight. I’d keep them with the logs.

 

[Clip4]

I just purchased a new plane - a 1994 Mooney Ovation. The POH (which is also the AFM) has a bunch of old W&B sheets from previous equipment upgrades. The aircraft was weighed in 2019 and a new W&B sheet issued. Do I need to keep the old W&B sheets in the POH? Also, there’s a bunch of AFM supplements for avionics that have been replaced. I’m assuming I don’t need to keep these in the POH but you never know…. Does anyone have some insight?

Trash all outdated WB data. If you have any question as to the accuracy of the current data, get the plane re- weighed and a new BEW/Moment for the aircraft.

Also ditch all the supplements for uninstalled avionics.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If you have any question as to the accuracy of the current data, get the plane weighed and a new BEW/Moment for the aircraft.

just make sure it’s done correctly. Mechanics aren’t generally any better at doing weight and balances than pilots.

 

[Nick Geber]

just make sure it’s done correctly. Mechanics aren’t generally any better at doing weight and balances than pilots.

The plane was weighed by a very reputable shop after a total panel upgrade.

 

[MauleSkinner]

The plane was weighed by a very reputable shop after a total panel upgrade.

That’s how I flew an airplane an inch out of the forward CG limit…a very reputable shop did the weight and balance, making an error of about an inch and a half in the empty CG.

 

[Jim K]

I took all my old ones out and put them into a folder with the rest of my records. The poh is unwieldy enough without a bunch of superfluous pages. Only the current one is required. If the plane was weighed, previous ones might not even be worth keeping other than it's fun for the next owner to look through.

Old supplements go straight to the circular file.

Now that the FAA explicitly allows electronic versions, I'm considering scanning mine and leaving the physical book in the hangar too.

 

[Bell206]

Do I need to keep the old W&B sheets in the POH?

While I agree it’s a good idea to keep your previous actual empty weight records, you don’t necessarily need to keep them in your AFM/POH. They are a great research record if needed and easily included with your other Part 91.417 records.
However before you cull out the old records, verify your current Aircraft Equipment List matches your current Aircraft Empty Weight Record. To be legal you need a current aircraft empty weight report which includes its required equipment list.

I’m assuming I don’t need to keep these in the POH but you never know

Provided the equipment is no longer installed in the aircraft, you can dispose of the supplements as you see fit. However, keep in mind some older/ancient supplements might actually have a value to others who use such equipment.

 

[Nick Geber]

I took all my old ones out and put them into a folder with the rest of my records. The poh is unwieldy enough without a bunch of superfluous pages. Only the current one is required. If the plane was weighed, previous ones might not even be worth keeping other than it's fun for the next owner to look through.

Old supplements go straight to the circular file.

Now that the FAA explicitly allows electronic versions, I'm considering scanning mine and leaving the physical book in the hangar too.

Thanks! Yes, I believe I will scan the whole thing!

 

[Jim K]

Thanks! Yes, I believe I will scan the whole thing!

I have a pdf copy of mine. It's for a different tail number, but the same "report number". That'll save a bunch of scanning, just have to get anything specific to my plane like w&b, equipment list, and supplements, and splice it together. Option two would be to take the whole thing to kinko's (do they still exist?) And have them scan it. The supplements would be the hardest part. I wonder if garmin would provide those as a pdf.

The real question is if I can talk my mechanic into taking the 3lb off my empty weight

 

[Papa Pilot]

I created an entirely new W&B document when I reweighted my plane a few years back. The document is combination of the W&B info and installed equipment with provisions for equipment additions/subtractions. So, from the point of reweight going forward, all changes are contained in one document and one can easily see what's been added or removed as well as the current empty weight, arm and moment.

Attached is a template. I keep both a copy of the signed off reweight doc, which is my starting point, and a current version of my W&B doc in my POH.

 

[flyingron]

Reweighing ain't rocket science. Just make sure that you follow the instructions for leveling the aircraft (it won't affect weight, but you'll want to get the CG right). And for gosh sake, do it indoors. It doesn't take much wind to generate some amount of lift and screw up the measurements.

 

[Ventucky Red]

Trash all outdated WB data.

I had asked my avionics guy what to do with all the old W&B when I was picking up the plane with the new W&B... He said the proper thing the FAA will want to see should you "get ramped" is the old W&B behind the new W&B with a line from Southwest to Northeast corners on the page with the date that coincides with the new W&B on the Northwest side of the line.

He also added that should you not have the old W&B with you and the person dong the check has an issue.... well let just day they woke on the wrong side of the bed...

There was also a mention of having the copies with a "wet signature," but again... IMPO..... a technicality only the most anal members of society would have an issue with.

 

[Clip4]

I had asked my avionics guy what to do with all the old W&B when I was picking up the plane with the new W&B... He said the proper thing the FAA will want to see should you "get ramped" is the old W&B behind the new W&B with a line from Southwest to Northeast corners on the page with the date that coincides with the new W&B on the Northwest side of the line.

He also added that should you not have the old W&B with you and the person dong the check has an issue.... well let just day they woke on the wrong side of the bed...

There was also a mention of having the copies with a "wet signature," but again... IMPO..... a technicality only the most anal members of society would have an issue with.

The OPs aircraft has one properly calculated WB using scales and the manufactures procedure.

Your airplane has a weight and balance (probably the original from the manufacturer) and a collection revision records. Yes, you should retain all the original WB and all the revisions.

This is how WBs become inaccurate over 50 years and at some point a proper weight and balance should be done and the previous avionic tech crap tossed in the trash.

If you read over all those records, you will quickly determine they aren’t very accurate and guesstimates. If you own an older Cessna, the OEM data wasn’t very accurate to begin with and the BEWs were greater than listed.

Once a proper WB is done, there is no need for the revisions.

 

[Bell206]

He said the proper thing the FAA will want to see should you "get ramped" is the old W&B behind the new W&B

Thats merely an opinion on the part of your avionics guy. The established FAA guidance only requires a "current" empty weight and balance report with equipment list to be on the aircraft. So thats all an ASI will look for during a ramp check. That same guidance also requires a mechanic or IA to ensure that EWB report is current and accurate at each 100 hour or annual. And if by "wet signature" you mean a signature on your current EWB report, then yes it is required by regulation but a copy of the EWB report is acceptable.

 

[Nick Geber]

The OPs aircraft has one properly calculated WB using scales and the manufactures procedure.

Your airplane has a weight and balance (probably the original from the manufacturer) and a collection revision records. Yes, you should retain all the original WB and all the revisions.

This is how WBs become inaccurate over 50 years and at some point a proper weight and balance should be done and the previous avionic tech crap tossed in the trash.

If you read over all those records, you will quickly determine they aren’t very accurate and guesstimates. If you own an older Cessna, the OEM data wasn’t very accurate to begin with and the BEWs were greater than listed.

Once a proper WB is done, there is no need for the revisions.

Yes, it was weighed at a very reputable shop after a complete panel upgrade. That's why it didn't make sense to keep the old WB stuff in the POH.

 

[Ventucky Red]

If you read over all those records, you will quickly determine they aren’t very accurate and guesstimates. If you own an older Cessna, the OEM data wasn’t very accurate to begin with and the BEWs were greater than listed.

Once a proper WB is done, there is no need for the revisions.

So true... a rough guesstimate

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I went through over a hundred W&B entries for my plane and found about 20 errors (math, transposing digits, omissions), in the end it resulted it the weight being off by 2lbs, I keep the W&B sheets and my spreadsheet I created in my POH, which got too fat with supplements for the original binder so I just bought a new binder.