Do I Have a 430W

JoseCuervo said:
But no value at this point for following magenta lines to direct airports?
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Why not? As VFR, unless there's a mountain or Class B, most of my flying is direct line out here in the west.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Any modification to the airplane, which an IFR GPS is, whether you use it or not, requires a supplement in the AFM/POH/whatever your airplane has.
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Any modification, no. But the STC for the IFR GPS installation does require it.
 
ChrisK said:
This is only required to file IFR /G, right? The manual is not required if the box itself is not required for the flight.
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If it was installed under the STC, the supplement and pilot guide need to be there regardless of whether you are flying IFR or not.

If it wasn't installed under the STC, you can't use it for IFR (regardless of what equipment code you need). You'll then have to see what basis for the installation was used to find out if it implies the flight manual supplement needs to be there.
 
I thought the supplement said the pilot guide was required for IFR ops. I only read it once so I really, really don't remember.
 
ChrisK said:
I thought the supplement said the pilot guide was required for IFR ops. I only read it once so I really, really don't remember.
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Pretty sure my STC said I had to have the manuals and correct supplements in the plane period.
 
That's a 430W WAAS unit. I've seen a number of planes that have the 430 faceplate but have been "upgraded" to be a 430W. Just make sure you have the proper paperwork in the airplane so you are legal to fly LPV and such (GPS supplement pages stating the unit meets WAAS certification), which the owner should have added to the onboard paperwork when the upgrade occurred.

Nice find!
 
JoseCuervo said:
What paperwork do I need to keep in the plane?


Where is the card located?


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The installing shop prepares a Supplement to the Approved Flight Manual that basically tells you all you need to know about that installation. THE AFM must be kept in the airplane, and the Supplement stays with it. FAR 91.9.

Bob Gardner
 
flyingron said:
Any modification, no. But the STC for the IFR GPS installation does require it.
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I'm having trouble coming up with an airplane mod where the STC doesn't require an AFM supplement, but if you can come up with one, I'll concede the point.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I'm having trouble coming up with an airplane mod where the STC doesn't require an AFM supplement, but if you can come up with one, I'll concede the point.
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Does it matter if it was a 2 step process?



Step 1- instal 430


Years later.....

Step 2- upgrade 430 to 430W
 
JoseCuervo said:
Does it matter if it was a 2 step process?



Step 1- instal 430


Years later.....

Step 2- upgrade 430 to 430W
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Yes. The 430w has a different supplement than the 430. It has different limitations for sure, requires a different manual be carried in the airplane, and probably had additional differences in the supplement documentation.
 
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ChrisK said:
Yes, but the 430W lets you fly precision GPS approaches. It will be more capable actually FLYING IFR.
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Well precision LIKE approaches, for all intensive purposes a LPV might as well be a ILS, plus the complementary VNV is great. That said you still can do a whole lot with a non WAAS 430.


Unit74 said:
?The 430w is a powerful flight tool. And like most, very few understand its capability. Kind of a, you don't know what yo don't know situation.
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I'm not totally buying that, you should know all the systems in the plane you're PICing, even if you're just a VFR pilot, not knowing how your 430 works and how to work it fully, especially since it is likely your main nav/com, is a major issue which should be addresses before acting as PIC :yes:
 
I agree, but if you're just using it for VFR stuff, I don't think it's necessary to HAVE to know how to load and activate approaches/missed/hold procedures etc.... I think at least kind of familiarizing yourself with them is not a terrible idea either.

There's also the cost of the databases, and maybe a VFR guy doesn't desire to pay the money to keep them current if he's not going to be utilizing them.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I agree, but if you're just using it for VFR stuff, I don't think it's necessary to HAVE to know how to load and activate approaches/missed/hold procedures etc.... I think at least kind of familiarizing yourself with them is not a terrible idea either.

There's also the cost of the databases, and maybe a VFR guy doesn't desire to pay the money to keep them current if he's not going to be utilizing them.
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For sure, don't bother with the Jepp updates for straight VFR stuff, but you should still know how to do everything that box can do, being able to pull up a approach (even if old) and get a GPS glide slope is great situational awareness tool even for a VFR only guy in CAVU conditions.

If you have a auto pilot, putting the plane on autopilot and setting going into a hold at a airport could come in handy for a VFR guy too.
 
James331 said:
For sure, don't bother with the Jepp updates for straight VFR stuff, but you should still know how to do everything that box can do, being able to pull up a approach (even if old) and get a GPS glide slope is great situational awareness tool even for a VFR only guy in CAVU conditions.

If you have a auto pilot, putting the plane on autopilot and setting going into a hold at a airport could come in handy for a VFR guy too.
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All that could be handy, but not necessary (or even reasonable) before PICing, which is the way I read your previous post.
 
James331 said:
For sure, don't bother with the Jepp updates for straight VFR stuff, but you should still know how to do everything that box can do, being able to pull up a approach (even if old) and get a GPS glide slope is great situational awareness tool even for a VFR only guy in CAVU conditions.



If you have a auto pilot, putting the plane on autopilot and setting going into a hold at a airport could come in handy for a VFR guy too.
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Plane does not have auto pilot, that I am aware.

Where would I look?

;-)





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Hate to be the guy that brings this up...But...maybe the seller was right...and you're a victim of one of those damn 430 thiefs.

What would happen if one had a 430 with a standard 430 antenna all installed and someone just swapped the box and put a 430W in? Would it work at all?

Hate to be the guy that suggests it - but a lot of 430's get stolen - and the common technique to "clean" them is to just swap the box they stole into someone else's airplane and then sell that one. That way you end up with the "stolen" serial number and never know it and the one they sell never ends up reported stolen.

Obviously if the 430 antenna wouldn't work at all on a 430W then this didn't happen. I'd take a look and see if you actually have a 430W antenna.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Does it matter if it was a 2 step process?



Step 1- instal 430


Years later.....

Step 2- upgrade 430 to 430W
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You always need the proper for the current installation. Typically the shop takes care of it and should have been updated with the WAAS unit.
 
jesse said:
Hate to be the guy that brings this up...But...maybe the seller was right...and you're a victim of one of those damn 430 thiefs.

What would happen if one had a 430 with a standard 430 antenna all installed and someone just swapped the box and put a 430W in? Would it work at all?

Hate to be the guy that suggests it - but a lot of 430's get stolen - and the common technique to "clean" them is to just swap the box they stole into someone else's airplane and then sell that one. That way you end up with the "stolen" serial number and never know it and the one they sell never ends up reported stolen.

Obviously if the 430 antenna wouldn't work at all on a 430W then this didn't happen. I'd take a look and see if you actually have a 430W antenna.
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Possible scenario but why would someone swap a WAAS unit in for a non WAAS one?

I know the cable/antenna is different between the two, no idea of the functionality of the W if you tried to use it with the old antenna and cables.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Possible scenario but why would someone swap a WAAS unit in for a non WAAS one?
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Money is money. Both have value. One with a stolen serial number however does not.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Possible scenario but why would someone swap a WAAS unit in for a non WAAS one?

I know the cable/antenna is different between the two, no idea of the functionality of the W if you tried to use it with the old antenna and cables.
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Pretty sure you need the correct antenna, the cable is backwards compatible, and many non W installs used the better cable to begin with. If it is a unit swap with a stolen unit (also a thought I had on original reading, I just didn't want to be the guy who brought it up) then I would not think that it would pass a self function test if it had the wrong antenna, but I would not bet on it since it would be a dangerous assumption. Many accident scenarios have been addressed with, "We never even imagined that happening...". AF447, the engineers who designed the stall warning system never imagined that the plane would see hat high of an AOA. Vertical Nav itself is not dependent on WAAS, however Garmin only offers it with WAAS in the US. I'm not sure if you get GPS vertical guidance in Europe or not, but they have no WAAS. Would a 430W pass on just the GPS signal from the non WAAS antenna?:dunno:
 
jesse said:
Hate to be the guy that brings this up...But...maybe the seller was right...and you're a victim of one of those damn 430 thiefs.



What would happen if one had a 430 with a standard 430 antenna all installed and someone just swapped the box and put a 430W in? Would it work at all?



Hate to be the guy that suggests it - but a lot of 430's get stolen - and the common technique to "clean" them is to just swap the box they stole into someone else's airplane and then sell that one. That way you end up with the "stolen" serial number and never know it and the one they sell never ends up reported stolen.



Obviously if the 430 antenna wouldn't work at all on a 430W then this didn't happen. I'd take a look and see if you actually have a 430W antenna.
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What does a 430w antenna look like compared to a 430 antenna.
 
The GNS430W may be installed with or without the STC. The STC installation is simpler because it comes with an AFMS already approved for IFR operation. A VFR installation is permitted and does not require the use of the AFMS, but the STC does require the AFMS. A VFR installation may be accomplished as a minor modification and some IFR installations would also be permitted as a minor modification, although the AFMS would have to be field approved. A GNS430W will function with the non WAAS antenna, but it would not be approved for IFR.

Version 3.3 of Jose's 430W is down level as the most current version is 5.20. Also, to be practical, the database should be brought up to date and kept current for IFR use. If the installation is not an IFR installation, then the placard "GPS VFR Use Only" needs to be included on the panel. An avionics shop can determine if the installation complies with the STC and print out a new copy of the AFMS if it is missing.

To use the equipment for GPS under IFR GPS, an AFMS is required to be in the aircraft. Also, the AFMS requires that the relevant Pilot guide be available in the aircraft as well. I keep my Pilot guides on my iPad and never look at them, but that satisfies the AFMS limitation.
 
This went from possibly really good news to possibly really crappie news in a hurry.
 
ChrisK said:
This is only required to file IFR /G, right? The manual is not required if the box itself is not required for the flight.
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Nothing in 91.9 to support that idea.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Nothing in 91.9 to support that idea.

Bob Gardner
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I've come to understand this on further reflection :)

Seems that the paperwork used to install the box determines the requirements for documentation on board for airworthiness.

I also have the pilot guide on my ipad...
 
JoseCuervo said:
I am pretty sure it is neither.


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If I paid for a non WAAS plane and got a WAAS plane that would be a extra 3k worth of airplane (WAAS upgrade), don't know about you but a extra 3k in my pocket is good news every day of the week!
 
James331 said:
If I paid for a non WAAS plane and got a WAAS plane that would be a extra 3k worth of airplane (WAAS upgrade), don't know about you but a extra 3k in my pocket is good news every day of the week!
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Assuming I don't sell it (I am not, and have no plans, and don't see any reason to upgrade) and I remain VFR, I don't feel any richer than I did 2 days ago.


What does it cost to upgrade the software, databases, and get it certified so I can start IFR lessons?
 
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