Do FBOs charge multiple landing fees?

Clip4 said:
Nobody is forcing you to do anything. If you don’t like the ramp fee drive.
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**** off. Dude.

Hey Clippy, you should make a big neon sign for your ripoff outfit, facing the taxiway in front of your precious ramp (that was paid for with tax dollars):

"If you don't like the ramp fee..DRIVE!"

You'll make all kinds of friends, just like you do here.
 
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Clip4 said:
I find it amazing the people who pay $25 for a spark plug, ***** of a $25 ramp fee.
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It's not the amount. It's the lack of transparency, but sometimes it is the amount, like when I got hit with an unpublished $60 ramp fee for dropping off a research sample with a colleague. I didn't need fuel, a restroom, or a flight planning room, I just needed through the gate, and the FBO had the keys to the gate. $60 please...at an airport I had flown to before without such fees. Had I known in advance I would have flown to another area airport. Competition, you know.

Imagine walking into a public park, and getting a bill for $20. It's only $20, but you are still getting ripped off without your awareness. There is no excuse in this day and age to publicize your fees. No excuses.
 
chemgeek said:
I didn't need fuel, a restroom, or a flight planning room, I just needed through the gate, and the FBO had the keys to the gate.
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This is the most maddening part of the whole deal to me.
 
It isn't paying for the upkeep of the ramp that I'm concerned about, but rather having to pay for the coffee I didn't drink, the popcorn and cookies I didn't eat, the recliner in the back room that I'm not allowed to use because it's for jet pilots, the silly red mat, etc.
 
To clarify my previous post a little, where I agreed with Clip4 that FBOs have a right to run their business and charge as they wish, and consumers have a right to avoid that business;
I admit to having a problem defending that position in the face of government interference (ie, the granting of monopolies). But since politics is a taboo subject here, I didn't want to go there, except to say that the ballot box is another method of protesting those fees, as inefficient and ineffectual as that may be.

But I still disagree with those that expect services to be provided to them for free.
 
JOhnH said:
But I still disagree with those that expect services to be provided to them for free.
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None of us expect free services. But we don't expect to pay for services we don't use. I have no problem paying overnight fees. I have an issue with companies that go out of their way to hide the fees. I have a problem with companies that block comments on Airnav letting other people know what the fees are. When you ran your business didn't you let people know what a surgery would cost before hand? What a general checkup was before hand? What prescriptions cost before hand? Or was it only after they walked through the door that you charged them a waiting room fee, a door usage fee, and a salutation fee? How many return customers would you have had if you pulled that?
 
Clip4 said:
I can’t argue with that, but most of the services you buy do not have fees posted on the internet.
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On the contrary, every other government- granted monopoly service I can think of not only posts is fees, but has its fees regulated. You're here justifying not posting fees while also saying if you don't like the fees go somewhere else. Impossible to reconcile.
 
Do FBOs charge multiple landing fees?
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Afraid of going broke if you bounce the landing..??

I don't understand. I hand the FBO people a bill for having the privilege of me parking there....

Seriously, find out the boundaries of the FBO ramp. Park outside that.
 
EdFred said:
None of us expect free services.
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Actually, that is not true. Some people expect to be allowed to land and pickup/discharge pax without paying. Even you expect to be able to take up about 900 sq ft of parking space and exit/enter a gate without paying. Somebody had to put that fence/gate in and landscape around it and monitor it's access in this post 9/11 era.

EdFred said:
But we don't expect to pay for services we don't use.
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FBOs have to pay for telephone expenses, electric bills, taxes, inspection fees, accounting fees, internet fees, rent, water, cleaning supply expenses, toilet paper and a whole host of other bills. Somebody has to pay for that, and it isn't the FBO. They distribute those expenses among users. Every FBO distributes those fees differently, and I may or may not agree with the way the distribute them, or what markup they include, but that isn't for me to say. It is only for me to say whether I patronize them or not.
EdFred said:
I have no problem paying overnight fees. I have an issue with companies that go out of their way to hide the fees. I have a problem with companies that block comments on Airnav letting other people know what the fees are.
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I agree with that, which goes to show that we are probably not in such great disagreement as it may appear.
EdFred said:
When you ran your business didn't you let people know what a surgery would cost before hand? What a general checkup was before hand? What prescriptions cost before hand? Or was it only after they walked through the door that you charged them a waiting room fee, a door usage fee, and a salutation fee? How many return customers would you have had if you pulled that?
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Certainly. In fact we ****ed some people by requiring them to sign an estimate of expected charges. We didn't publish our fees though because they could change rapidly. Many times we found out that a drug or supply increased ten-fold or more when we took delivery. We would change our prices immediately, usually eating a large part of the increase, at least for a while.but we always informed a client of prices prior to invoicing them. That didn't help much because a large percentage of people would get upset at us anyway. If we gave them something for free, the next time they came in they complained if we charged regular price. That made us curtail giving stuff away in the first place. Even samples.

At any rate, the way I ran my business is not a template for others, but clients still thought that just because another business charged less, or combined fees differently, or did any of a myriad of things differently, that we should be like them, as long as that meant we charged less. But we must have done something right because we kept getting busier and busier.

I agree with you that there should be more transparency. And we shouldn't have to fly there to find out the fees before it is too late to decide we don't want to patronize them But I also think FBOs take a bad rap because too many people want services for free or for cheap.
 
Clip4 said:
I find it amazing the people who pay $25 for a spark plug, ***** of a $25 ramp fee.
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I’m amazed the people who charge the $25 ramp fee and think it’s normal not to post it on their website like other businesses.

I can find out how much the spark plug costs before I buy it, and I can’t buy it by accident by simply parking my airplane on public property.

Nice try.
 
JOhnH said:
Actually, that is not true. Some people expect to be allowed to land and pickup/discharge pax without paying. Even you expect to be able to take up about 900 sq ft of parking space and exit/enter a gate without paying. Somebody had to put that fence/gate in and landscape around it and monitor it's access in this post 9/11 era.


FBOs have to pay for telephone expenses, electric bills, taxes, inspection fees, accounting fees, internet fees, rent, water, cleaning supply expenses, toilet paper and a whole host of other bills. Somebody has to pay for that, and it isn't the FBO. They distribute those expenses among users. Every FBO distributes those fees differently, and I may or may not agree with the way the distribute them, or what markup they include, but that isn't for me to say. It is only for me to say whether I patronize them or not.

I agree with that, which goes to show that we are probably not in such great disagreement as it may appear.

Certainly. In fact we ****ed some people by requiring them to sign an estimate of expected charges. We didn't publish our fees though because they could change rapidly. Many times we found out that a drug or supply increased ten-fold or more when we took delivery. We would change our prices immediately, usually eating a large part of the increase, at least for a while.but we always informed a client of prices prior to invoicing them. That didn't help much because a large percentage of people would get upset at us anyway. If we gave them something for free, the next time they came in they complained if we charged regular price. That made us curtail giving stuff away in the first place. Even samples.

At any rate, the way I ran my business is not a template for others, but clients still thought that just because another business charged less, or combined fees differently, or did any of a myriad of things differently, that we should be like them, as long as that meant we charged less. But we must have done something right because we kept getting busier and busier.

I agree with you that there should be more transparency. And we shouldn't have to fly there to find out the fees before it is too late to decide we don't want to patronize them But I also think FBOs take a bad rap because too many people want services for free or for cheap.
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The FBO didn't pay for the gate. Opening the gate is not a service, it's supposed to be granted as a right. Airports that take federal money are also supposed to allow people to pass into and out of the airport without being charged by the FBO. The landscaping (at least around here) is not done by the FBO. It's contracted out by the airport to landscape companies. I know this because my friend had the contract at one time. When I use the FBO's phone, electric, bathroom, water, internet, or whatever, I will gladly pay for them. I don't use them. Instead the FBO has circumvented the ability for everyone who has the right to pass through the fence without paying a fee, and force us to pay for services we don't use. That's the problem. And as none of us are residents (since we are transients) that are able to vote for the airport board (or people that then appoint the board) who collude with the FBO to block our right to pass through the fence without a fee.

I own property on a public road. I own to the center of the road, and there's an easement of 33' feet. I still have to pay taxes on that easement. I still have to maintain that easement. The road was built with public money. Should I be able to charge any car that passes across my property line a fee? I mean I have electricity bills, tax bills, landscape bills, internet bills, etc. Why can't I recoup my costs like the FBO? The passing traffic isn't using my services, but they are technically on my property. You're in favor of me charging any car that passes across my piece of land even though they never used my electric, phone, etc...?
 
denverpilot said:
I’m amazed the people who charge the $25 ramp fee and think it’s normal not to post it on their website like other businesses.

I can find out how much the spark plug costs before I buy it, and I can’t buy it by accident by simply parking my airplane on public property.

Nice try.
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You are contradicting his point with a misapplied argument.

If someone thinks $25 is too much to pay for parking but is fine with paying $25 for a spark plug is one thing.

Not informing people of the $25 parking fee is another thing. You can't criticize one by pointing out the other.
 
JOhnH said:
You are contradicting his point with a misapplied argument.
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That’s because he’s using misapplied arguments to justify his company hiding fees.

I fully know it’s stupid, therefore I respond in kind at his same level.

Spark plugs. Seriously.

We could talk about how much more utility one gets out of a spark plug than parking on a ramp for ten minutes, which was already bought and paid for by public funding... if he wanted a real discussion about it.

He doesn’t. He wants to defend FBOs hiding fees and rationalize it in any possible way.
 
EdFred said:
The FBO didn't pay for the gate. Airports that take federal money are also supposed to allow people to pass into and out of the airport without being charged by the FBO. The landscaping (at least around here) is not done by the FBO. It's contracted out by the airport to landscape companies. I know this because my friend had the contract at one time. When I use the FBO's phone, electric, bathroom, water, internet, or whatever, I will gladly pay for them. I don't use them. Instead the FBO has circumvented the ability for everyone who has the right to pass through the fence without paying a fee, and force us to pay for services we don't use. That's the problem. And as none of us are residents (since we are transients) that are able to vote for the airport board (or people that then appoint the board) who collude with the FBO to block our right to pass through the fence without a fee.

I own property on a public road. I own to the center of the road, and there's an easement of 33' feet. I still have to pay taxes on that easement. I still have to maintain that easement. The road was built with public money. Should I be able to charge any car that passes across my property line a fee? I mean I have electricity bills, tax bills, landscape bills, internet bills, etc. Why can't I recoup my costs like the FBO? The passing traffic isn't using my services, but they are technically on my property. You're in favor of me charging any car that passes across my piece of land even though they never used my electric, phone, etc...?
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So if you land, walk inside and use the bathroom and wifi, then exit and use the gate, you should get an itemized invoice for using the bathroom and wifi? Or should that be free too because places like McDonalds doesn't charge people to use the bathroom. I prefer that everyone gets charged a basic fee and basic amenities are included. And YES, that basic fee should be easily transparent. Invisible type fonts are not transparent.

The FBO might not have paid for the gate or the landscaping, but those services are certainly included in their rent.
 
That is why it pains me to even partially agree with him. But if you look past some of the stupidity, I think we both agree that FBOs need to generate revenue somehow, and nobody has the right to demand how the do that, unless they are breaking some sort of law. And nobody can or should demand that all FBOs charge the same fees using the same fee structures.

denverpilot said:
That’s because he’s using misapplied arguments to justify his company hiding fees.

I fully know it’s stupid, therefore I respond in kind at his same level.

Spark plugs. Seriously.

We could talk about how much more utility one gets out of a spark plug than parking on a ramp for ten minutes, which was already bought and paid for by public funding... if he wanted a real discussion about it.

He doesn’t. He wants to defend FBOs hiding fees and rationalize it in any possible way.
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JOhnH said:
So if you land, walk inside and use the bathroom and wifi, then exit and use the gate, you should get an itemized invoice for using the bathroom and wifi? Or should that be free too because places like McDonalds doesn't charge people to use the bathroom. I prefer that everyone gets charged a basic fee and basic amenities are included. And YES, that basic fee should be easily transparent. Invisible type fonts are not transparent.

The FBO might not have paid for the gate or the landscaping, but those services are certainly included in their rent.
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All of that could be covered under a basic service fee. Like a buffet. You can take one plate, or you can eat 5 plates. Problem is grant assurances require us to be able to go through the gate without being charged. The airport and FBO are colluding to prevent that. Oh and under Michigan law if you are a business open to the public you are unable to refuse someone's use of the rest room even if they don't buy anything.
 
JOhnH said:
That is why it pains me to even partially agree with him. But if you look past some of the stupidity, I think we both agree that FBOs need to generate revenue somehow, and nobody has the right to demand how the do that, unless they are breaking some sort of law. And nobody can or should demand that all FBOs charge the same fees using the same fee structures.
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They are if the airport has accepted federal money. And at all of these airports where we have these problems, they have accepted federal money. If they need to generate money on piston aircraft, make it so piston airplanes will actually go there. Charging $3 higher/gallon than all the other airports around will not do that.
 
JOhnH said:
That is why it pains me to even partially agree with him. But if you look past some of the stupidity, I think we both agree that FBOs need to generate revenue somehow, and nobody has the right to demand how the do that, unless they are breaking some sort of law. And nobody can or should demand that all FBOs charge the same fees using the same fee structures.
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The “public” certainly does have a right to demand things of any business that uses public infrastructure that is dedicated to that business to make their profit.

If the FBO wants to build their own ramp and maintain it, fine. If it’s public funding buying their airplane parking lot, then yes, people can ask the politicians to put whatever limitations on it We The People want.

I’d settle for “If aircraft are parking on ramp areas paid for with public funds, and that parking has any fees associated with it levied by a private business, those must be clearly published on the airport website or the business’s website as a suitable replacement.”
 
paflyer said:
**** off. Dude.

Hey Clippy, you should make a big neon sign for your ripoff outfit, facing the taxiway in front of your precious ramp (that was paid for with tax dollars):

"If you don't like the ramp fee..DRIVE!"

You'll make all kinds of friends, just like you do here.
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Just put him on "ignore"; I did. Makes for a netter POA experience.
 
Rather than moaning. You guys should be figuring out how the airports you demand free service are going to remain open without your contribution toward the operational expense. Not many FBOs are going to rent a ramp for +$5000 a month and let you use it free. Most municipalities are not going to tax their residents or their airline customers to give you free parking.

So enjoy the self pity club.
 
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Palmpilot said:
"We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company."
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Clippy
Clip4 said:
Rather than moaning. You guys should be figuring out how the airports you demand free service are going to remain open without your contribution toward the operational expense. Not many FBOs are going to rent a ramp for +$5000 a month and let you use it free. Most municipalities are not going to tax their residents or their airline customers to give you free parking.

So enjoy the self pity club.
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What FBO do you work for? GFY Aviation?
 
Clip4 said:
Rather than moaning. You guys should be figuring out how the airports you demand free service are going to remain open without your contribution toward the operational expense. Not many FBOs are going to rent a ramp for +$5000 a month and let you use it free. Most municipalities are not going to tax their residents or their airline customers to give you free parking.

So enjoy the self pity club.
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Nobody asked any airport to provide free service. Where’d you get that?

And with Federal money involved in paying for the ramp, yes, they already taxed all of the taxpayers of the entire country to build and maintain it.

Whatever ramp rent you negotiated with the government to borrow what we paid for, is not our problem. That’s yours.

Leasing public property can be lucrative, but most businesses that do it have published prices on their products.

Nice try, again.
 
denverpilot said:
Nobody asked any airport to provide free service. Where’d you get that?

And with Federal money involved in paying for the ramp, yes, they already taxed all of the taxpayers of the entire country to build and maintain it.

Whatever ramp rent you negotiated with the government to borrow what we paid for, is not our problem. That’s yours.

Leasing public property can be lucrative, but most businesses that do it have published prices on their products.

Nice try, again.
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There are members on this board who want a free ramp system where one can land at any of the busiest airports in the US, deplane passengers and depart without leaving a nickel.

I have no argument about requiring the FBOs to disclose the ramp fees, but for unknown reason the FAA is not on board with that.
 
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Clip4 said:
There are members on this board who want a free ramp system where one can land at any of the busiest airports in the US, deplane passengers and depart without leaving a nickel.
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Excessive airport fees are mostly effective in driving away small GA traffic from what are supposed to be public facilities. Facilities that taxpayers financed in large part. No one can seriously think a $20 or $40 or $60 ramp fee for flibs is what is keeping the FBO afloat. More like the $7/gal fuel sales and the high volume Jet-A flowage. It wouldn't kill FBOs to be less punitive to the little guys. There are a lot of airports that get it right, and I'll give them my business.

I remember a time long ago when you couldn't use public beaches in some areas of the country unless you stayed at one of the resort hotels that built in the beachfront and walled it off. Laws got passed to force property owners to provide a means of public access to public property.

Abusive and secretive fees, and increased costs are what can happen when you privatize public goods. Private businesses are geared to make profits, not necessarily to provide broad access. Think about that when the idea of privatizing ATC comes up again.
 
Clip4 said:
There are members on this board who want a free ramp system where one can land at any of the busiest airports in the US, deplane passengers and depart without leaving a nickel.
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I would agree that that would be an unreasonable expectation at airports that are busy enough to be at the center of a class B surface area. Even at class C airports I would not consider a $20 fee unreasonable, provided that it was the total cost imposed for day use.
 
Clip4 said:
Rather than moaning. You guys should be figuring out how the airports you demand free service are going to remain open without your contribution toward the operational expense. Not many FBOs are going to rent a ramp for +$5000 a month and let you use it free. Most municipalities are not going to tax their residents or their airline customers to give you free parking.

So enjoy the self pity club.
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Every other business out there has overhead. And they still don't charge non-customers. Tom Thumb pays a hell of a lot more than $5,000/mo rent. But they don't charge me to come in and look around. Starbuck's unofficial, and now official policy is that you can take a seat and hang out for as long as you want. Even low-volume brick and mortar stores don't charge to browse--even if you take up a parking space. I've been to many FBOs that don't charge any fees for anything. Buy 5 gallons of fuel for the Cub, take the courtesy car to lunch, have a cookie when you come back, bottle of water for the flight home. Somehow they manage to make money. And many of them have competition on the same airport. Others aren't fancy, like where I'm based, but there's a counter if you want fuel, a place to sit, and coffee bar, and vending machines. They manage to stay in business without charging for zero services. Have reasonable gas prices so people don't avoid buying from you, and keep your overhead down.
 
Clip4 said:
I have no argument about requiring the FBOs to disclose the ramp fees, but for unknown reason the FAA is not on board with that.
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I had thought you wanted the fees kept private and had argued for that. If you didn’t, my apologies.
 
I'm sitting here at Lane at KCMH Port Columbus in Ohio and they assure me that the $15 is good for all day.
 
There are some common misnomers that should be clear to all here.
1. Most FBOs do not own the airport. The FBO leases/rents space on the airport grounds.
2. Most airports are operated by an airport authority or other government (non-private) department (county or city) sometimes the FBO lease includes management of the airport by the FBO (usually not)
3. If you use the FBO facilities (that they pay for) don't you think the FBO would want you to pay for them?
4. It has been common for the FBO and the airport to 'function' as one unit but this is normally not the case. Burke lakefront airport in Cleveland charges a landing fee ($7.00, twin $10) collected by N number. Billed by mail. The FBO has nothing to do with it. If you park under the tower and enter and exit the building and do not use the FBO facility (separate building) there is no parking or ramp fee. If you park at the FBO they will charge you.
 
Burke does not in my experience charge multiple landings per day.
 
Hmmm. I put comments on Airnav and ForeFlight. Jackson Hole Aviation told Airnav I lied and they took the comment down. Sent copies of my receipts to Airnav, comment is back up...
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Hmmm. I put comments on Airnav and ForeFlight. Jackson Hole Aviation told Airnav I lied and they took the comment down. Sent copies of my receipts to Airnav, comment is back up...
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Then apparently, someone at Jackson Hole thinks it's wrong too. I don't remember, did you mention to us whether you talked to management there about this?

Its a shame because Jackson Hole was on my list of places I wanted to visit some day.
 
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