do fatal accidents make you think twice?

bluee

bluee

Line Up and Wait
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I know of two fatal accidents in the past few months. The one last week near JGG, and one in Florida a few months ago. Both pilots were very experienced with thousands of hours. One crashed while landing, the other on takeoff. How can two very experienced pilots with thousands of hours die like that? By comparison I have a measly 250 hours and those deaths have shaken me up. I don't want to kill myself or anyone else.
 
Nope. Life is risky. Everytime I pull onto the runway, my situational awareness climbs 100% and I plan for something going wrong.
 
Sure, in the same way every time I read about a fatal auto accident, I think, that could be me someday! And then I try to mitigate the risks, and do the best I can to make sure I stay safe.
 
Aren't comfortable with the risks, maybe time for a new hobby. I let motorcycles go about 4 years ago after moving into the city.
 
bnt83 said:
You need to talk to a retired airline pilot. A lot of stories start with "I had a friend killed in..."
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My father is a retired airline pilot (Pan Am and then Delta), and before that he flew F-100 in the Air Force. I have asked him about things like this, and he knows people who have died, but he keeps telling me nothing too eventful has happened to him during his career.
 
bluee said:
My father is a retired airline pilot (Pan Am and then Delta), and before that he flew F-100 in the Air Force. I have asked him about things like this, and he knows people who have died, but he keeps telling me nothing too eventful has happened to him during his career.
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Some accidents are just bizzar and I have a hard time believing we will ever really know what actually happened even tho the experts came to a conclusion.
 
bnt83 said:
Aren't comfortable with the risks, maybe time for a new hobby. I let motorcycles go about 4 years ago after moving into the city.
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Bingo, I'll take the first flight of a plane I just bolted the wings on to with out second thought.

The image of a driver taking me out on a bike gives me the hebby geebies and keeps me from buying one.
 
The life expectancy of a B-17 crew member was 30 days during WWII. I'm not too worried about flying civilian aircraft during peacetime.
 
bluee said:
I know of two fatal accidents in the past few months. The one last week near JGG, and one in Florida a few months ago. Both pilots were very experienced with thousands of hours. One crashed while landing, the other on takeoff. How can two very experienced pilots with thousands of hours die like that? By comparison I have a measly 250 hours and those deaths have shaken me up. I don't want to kill myself or anyone else.
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The more I'm on the ground the more I think about it. The more I'm in the air, the less I think about it.

It's easy for the time we think about crashes to outweigh the time we think about safe flights, when in reality the safe flights far outnumber the crashes. The risk is there, but it tends to be exaggerated in our minds. If you can accept no risk, stay on the ground. Otherwise do your best to be safe and dwell on the positive.

Charles Lindbergh once said, "I decided that if I could fly for ten years before I was killed in a crash, it would be a worthwhile trade for an ordinary lifetime."
 
FLYING just happens to have excellent article on the subject. They give a fairly recent example of a 4000 hrs airline pilot with a spotless career who was landing an amphibian airplane on water and landed with gear down causing death of his son. This guy took it really hard since he was a pilot that never missed a checklist/GUMP and as a result of this life changing experience founded an educational video for pilots so others can learn from his fatal mistake.
 
geneseib said:
The more I'm on the ground the more I think about it. The more I'm in the air, the less I think about it.
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That really sums up my experiences as well. If if has been a week or two since I have flown I tend to have reservations, am I up to the challenge, is the aircraft safe, is the weather good enough and so on.

I have actually planned to go fly and will let the simplest thing prevent me from heading to the airport. However once I open the door to the hangar I am fine and can't wait to get in the air.

AOPA actually did a video on the guy that flipped his float plane, very compelling and fits the I'm Safe program very well.
 
When my plane partner and best friend was killed in the crash of our plane, several friends solicitously asked if I thought I would continue to fly. My answer was that if Jim and Marilyn had died in a car accident I wouldn't have walked to their funeral.
 
Short answer: No.

Long Answer: Nope.
 
I have lost a few really close friends, and some acquaintances, over my years of flying. Most were while on duty, doing what they lived for. I don't think "twice" when hearing of an accident, I just wonder what led to the mistake, and redouble my commitment to garnering all the info I can to make each flight safe.

And then sometimes there is no mistake made by the crew, such as in the case of CG1705 in 2009. Others let them down, and they were the victims of plain bad luck. I think the incidents that were just incredibly unlucky get to me more than ones where there was an obvious mode of failure in either the machine or the crew, because anyone can be unlucky.
 
Pilots all say, "that can't happen to me, because I would not make that mistake". However, we do.

They should instead always be asking, "I wonder how my accident report will read...". That would go a long way to stopping the mayhem.
 
wabower said:
When my plane partner and best friend was killed in the crash of our plane, several friends solicitously asked if I thought I would continue to fly. My answer was that if Jim and Marilyn had died in a car accident I wouldn't have walked to their funeral.
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:yeahthat: When all is said and done, there's not that much that's out of our control. Then it's a matter of how well we perform those things that are in our control. I'm willing to bet on my skill and judgment in order to fly rather than exchange that privilege for any earth-bound pursuit.
 
Skylane81E said:
Bingo, I'll take the first flight of a plane I just bolted the wings on to with out second thought.

The image of a driver taking me out on a bike gives me the hebby geebies and keeps me from buying one.
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My wife and I, along with another couple were heading home from a lunch date, one day and saw a woman on a bicycle literally run over by a min-van, driven by a guy from England. Because they do what they do in a car on the wrong side of the road, he only looked one way and then ran her over.

Made me think...
 
bbchien said:
Pilots all say, "that can't happen to me, because I would not make that mistake". However, we do.

They should instead always be asking, "I wonder how my accident report will read...". That would go a long way to stopping the mayhem.
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Very true, what an excellent post :yes:
 
bbchien said:
Pilots all say, "that can't happen to me, because I would not make that mistake". However, we do.

They should instead always be asking, "I wonder how my accident report will read...". That would go a long way to stopping the mayhem.
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Early on in my career I used to ride with an AC whose favorite expression when things got a little hairy was; "Well, THIS won't look good on the accident report." :yikes:
 
olasek said:
FLYING just happens to have excellent article on the subject. They give a fairly recent example of a 4000 hrs airline pilot with a spotless career who was landing an amphibian airplane on water and landed with gear down causing death of his son. This guy took it really hard since he was a pilot that never missed a checklist/GUMP and as a result of this life changing experience founded an educational video for pilots so others can learn from his fatal mistake.
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Do you have a link to that article?
 
They do, but then I remind myself that statistically speaking, the most dangerous part of flying is the drive to get to the field.
 
We all know the stupid tricks that kill pilots. Few have managed anything even approaching new in a long, long time. Don't do those things are you're less likely to ball it up. Less likely. Murphy likes to bite pilots, and when Murphy bites your bag of luck empties in a hurry. It could happen to any of us.

Even so, most pilot accidents we read about are not Murphy getting his due. They are preventable accident chains that start with stupid pilot tricks.
 
steingar said:
Even so, most pilot accidents we read about are not Murphy getting his due. They are preventable accident chains that start with stupid pilot tricks.
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Like carrying enough fuel and stopping well before you run out.
 
e.pie said:
They do, but then I remind myself that statistically speaking, the most dangerous part of flying is the drive to get to the field.
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Actually not true unless your flight is going to be extremely short or your drive is very long (assuming General Aviation). If say your distance to the airport is 10 nm but your flight is going to be say 100 nm then your chance of fatality will be almost 70 times larger in flight than during your drive.
 
olasek said:
Actually not true unless your flight is going to be extremely short or your drive is very long (assuming General Aviation). If say your distance to the airport is 10 nm but your flight is going to be say 100 nm then your chance of fatality will be almost 70 times larger in flight than during your drive.
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Car accidents I've been in: 2
Airplane accidents I've been in: 0

I've probably flown more than half as many miles as I've driven. So even if I have an airplane accident, the ratio is still in GA's favor.
 
I always ask myself if I had to talk to someone from the ntsb, would I say "I thought" finish the sentence with whatever you are checking/thinking about, I.e. I had enough fuel, the clouds would lift, the vibration was a fouled plug, I wasn't enough over gross to hurt anything, etc. i know before I fly, if I only think I don't fly or take an action that takes me from think to know.

With that said, things can still go wrong when we do everything right. We put ourselves at risk anytime we leave the house. Heck a guy in his house was just swallowed by a sink hole. Yes the accidents make me think and I try to learn from them.

Jim
 
To tell you the truth, I originally thought it couldn't happen to me, but that is just not the case.

I remember last month I took off in 200' OVC and 1/4 mile vis.

Now, I have a subscription to IFR magazine, and when we took off and headed unto that 5000' foot thick cloud layer toward the mountains at KUNV, thoughts started running into my head about all the articles I have read of people who have hit mountains and hills due to stupidity, and when I took off I was excited! But from the surface until my MEA, I kept thinking and thinking about those articles and I thought to myself, staring out into the landing light lit darkness... "If i see even see a stitch off trees, houses or terrain, I will be dead before I even can react... holy ****!"

It was then I realized my boundaries, knowing that I am a boyfriend, a brother, and a son, and I have too much to lose just to get up and out for MY convenience.... And all of a sudden those articles and crashes started making me think twice...

So, my answer to you is YES, they do make me think twice, but only because I had an event accompany me in my aviation experiences that made me think that way,

Let's face it, you would rather be down here wishing you were up there, then up there, wishing you were down here... There is NO truer statement in aviation then that... NONE
 
As morbid as it sounds, I'm encouraged by NTSB accident reports. Every single one is a lesson to me. It's too bad that a family has to be devastated in order for us to be reminded not to cut corners and STILL I hear and read stories about seasoned pilots doing dumb things. It's frustrating for me because I get the look from the wife. I've been too busy to flight train lately and in the back of my mind, I'm concerned that even the little I know is seeping out of one ear. What I know from most of the accidents I read about is loss of focus can kill you.

My wife told me that if I ever bought a motorcycle she'd leave me. It was because as much as she trusts me, there's no telling who's on the road at a given time. As dangerous as aviation is, your odds are better in the air.
 
Don't let others die for nothing but don't let it kill your passion.

As a professional pilot, I try to analyze what happened, what would I have done in the same situation had I not known about the crash and what I would do differently knowing that there was a bad outcome.

On the other hand, I can't see myself not flying. I accept the risks and I have taken steps to protect my loved ones if the number of take offs fails to match the number of landings.
 
KeithASanford said:
As morbid as it sounds, I'm encouraged by NTSB accident reports. Every single one is a lesson to me. It's too bad that a family has to be devastated in order for us to be reminded not to cut corners and STILL I hear and read stories about seasoned pilots doing dumb things.
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+1! The sad part is we pilots continue to exhibit behavior which earns us write-ups in the chronicles of the NTSB. I too read these reports and shake my head in disbelief. We are still running out of fuel, CFIT, VFR into IFR,,, the list goes on and on. Will we ever learn.....
 
bluee said:
I know of two fatal accidents in the past few months.... and those deaths have shaken me up. I don't want to kill myself or anyone else.
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Of course you don't and I don't want to bum you out but I've been flying for almost 45 years now and in that time there have been a dozen people killed in aviation related mishaps that I personally knew. People will lead you to believe it's as safe or safer than driving a car but I don't personally know a dozen people who have died in car crashes so I don't believe that.

However, there is something making you do this, you're not being forced to do it. I also know people who have died of cancer and it ain't a pretty thing either. You simply cannot avoid death no matter what you do. It's gonna get you one way or another.
 
bluee said:
I know of two fatal accidents in the past few months. The one last week near JGG, and one in Florida a few months ago. Both pilots were very experienced with thousands of hours. One crashed while landing, the other on takeoff. How can two very experienced pilots with thousands of hours die like that? By comparison I have a measly 250 hours and those deaths have shaken me up. I don't want to kill myself or anyone else.
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Read "the last hour" by Richard Collins.
 
bluee said:
I know of two fatal accidents in the past few months. The one last week near JGG, and one in Florida a few months ago. Both pilots were very experienced with thousands of hours. One crashed while landing, the other on takeoff. How can two very experienced pilots with thousands of hours die like that? By comparison I have a measly 250 hours and those deaths have shaken me up. I don't want to kill myself or anyone else.
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There was a crash in Florida where the pilot stalled the plane into an unrecoverable spin turning base to final. I'm not sure if that was the landing crash you reference, but I read somewhere(maybe here?)that the CFI who had done his recent flight review noted that he should concentrate on not making turns in the pattern to steep. The idea that the slightest distraction or break in concentration can negate 1000's of hours of training, gave me pause. Of all the reports I've read, that one stayed on my mind practically all day.
 
KeithASanford said:
...the CFI who had done his recent flight review noted that he should concentrate on not making turns in the pattern to steep. The idea that the slightest distraction or break in concentration can negate 1000's of hours of training, gave me pause....
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There is complacency and that's going to happen to you after 1000's of hours because you just get more comfortable with it so it's just going to happen to one degree or another. Then there is the pattern where you are now flying through the air on ground reference. This is where problems can occur because the air and ground are not connected. You've slowed down, thrown out flaps and gear and as you concentrate on the pattern across the ground you can be distracted from your path through the air.

You hear about "seat of the pants" flying and if you are sitting in the back seat of an old J3 Cub you're going to feel any slip or skid in your ass but in most small airplanes you're going to be sitting about right smack dab on the CG which is the pivot point for both pitch and yaw so you're not going to feel much in the seat of your pants.

This is why it can and does happen to even very seasoned pilots. You can do steep banks at low altitude but you've got to be flying the air and not watching your track across the ground.
 
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