Do Controllers Get Training on IAP Procedures ?

Discussion in 'Change to my Frequency...' started by ARFlyer, Jul 14, 2016.

  1. ARFlyer

    ARFlyer Pattern Altitude

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    Had an interesting exchange today while with my IR student. We went down to a local airport that has the closest B/C. While asking Center for the approach, I got the choice to receive vectors or proceed direct DOGGE. I choose DOGGE for my student to practice the full procedure.

    Upon reading the plate, I noticed that DOGGE was a NO PT IAF for which we were unable to accept, as we were inbound from the North. I advised Center we needed MARIE for the procedure turn. Center came back confused saying that MARIE was a hold and that DOGGE was correct. I advised that MARIE was a hold but that we can do the procedure turn as a HOLD-IN-LIEU. Center still seemed confused why MARIE was a valid IAF, but cleared us direct. Few minutes later Center asked us to confirm that DOGGE was a NO PT IAF and that that we were legal to do MARIE.

    So did Center just have a brain fart, a student slip up, or are they not trained on how IAP's are flown? Not annoyed at the controller, just concerned.

    http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1607/00420LBC4.PDF
     
  2. Doggtyred

    Doggtyred En-Route

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    Vectors to DOGGE is the likely real world solution.

    I suspect its NoPT because Dogge is on V289 and they dont want you doing turns and holds on an airway.

    Maybe by trying to do full procedure for the training you simply tripped up something that controller hadn't come across operationally. yet. He probably knows his airspace (dimensions, etc), but doubt he's pulled the plate out in a while.
     
  3. northtechsan

    northtechsan Filing Flight Plan

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    They were probably confused. MARIE is the hold on the published missed for the ILS22. Since RWY04 has a RNAV IAP there probably isn't a lot of requests for the BC04.


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  4. SCCutler

    SCCutler Administrator Management Council Member

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    Nice avatar!
     
  5. luvflyin

    luvflyin Pattern Altitude

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    Doubt if it was a brain fart. More likely not adequatley trained. My guess is that approach isn't used much and they were outside of their "rote" learning. Not supposed to happen, but it does.
     
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  6. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Caught my eye as well. My Dad was a captain for Braniff until 1982.
     
  7. northtechsan

    northtechsan Filing Flight Plan

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    I'm a Braniff brat, mom was a FA from 1663-1982. She worked the last DFW-HNL flight on 5/12/82


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  8. DrewG

    DrewG Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Your mom has some good genes to have worked 319 years! :biggrin:

    Seriously, though - cool avatar!
     
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  9. northtechsan

    northtechsan Filing Flight Plan

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    That's what I get from using my iPhone...
    1963-1982


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  10. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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  11. DrewG

    DrewG Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I knew what you meant...welcome to PoA!
     
  12. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Also a braniff brat. Dad started about 1968. Ask her if she remembers Tom Farlow (my dad) and Don Faruta, one of Dad's long time friends from Braniff
     
  13. ARFlyer

    ARFlyer Pattern Altitude

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    I've never heard anyone using it beyond the occasional training approach. They try to land 22 as much as possible.

    That's what I thought happened. I had a trainee controller the other day in SHV that "lost the picture". The guy was trying his hardest, but got relived after he accidentally tried to turn us into someone.
     
  14. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

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    I never trained in or practiced an ILS back course with my -II, mostly because there weren't any around. Several months later, less than a year, we are off on a merry jaunt to see the inlaws. Being a good boy, and expecting clouds enroute, I filed. As we get closer to central NC, clouds appear and ATC descends me (miraculously) between them for several thousand feet before I get inside.

    On that fun descent, watching cloud tops on both sides (maybe a 1/4 nm gap I'm flying through), the nice folks cleared me for the ILS Back Course approach. Yep, here's the plate. So I accepted and started looking at it, thinking to myself, Gee, I've never done a back course before . . . The very next page was a GPS to the same runway. So I asked if I could do the GPS instead, and they quickly changed my clearance. This was in Fall 10 or spring 11, and I still haven't flown an ILS Back Course.
     
  15. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    I've never flown a BC in anger, either, though I flew the one at KPTK many times in training. The one time in hard IMC that I was offered the LOC BC, I asked for the LPV instead, and I would not have gotten in if I had accepted the BC. I suspect that's common and going to become more common in the future. Unless there are obstacles preventing LPV minimums, most runways with a LOC BC will probably have a LPV approach with lower minimums. If you need to get in and can fly the LPV, you'll choose that over the BC.
     
  16. Brad Z

    Brad Z En-Route

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    An HSI makes a back course approach fly just like a localizer approach.
     
  17. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    And a GPS approach is even easier to fly....:D
     
  18. luvflyin

    luvflyin Pattern Altitude

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    You can practice on any localizer. Get up to altitude above the traffic below and practice joining the localizer outbound. Hell, maybe you do that anyway on an ILS with a procedure turn. If your taking off VFR straight out, going backwards up a localizer, is a great time to practice. An extra set of eyeballs with you is a good idea so you spend more time watching the needles. Other than "reverse sensing" a BC is just another approach
     
  19. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Unless it's on a G1000 PFD.

    You can set the course to your intended course to get normal sensing, but it will yell at you for it. Garmin thinks your course should be the front course.
     
  20. Brad Z

    Brad Z En-Route

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    That's kinda stupid. Oh well, BC approaches are going away.