DME Holding
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midlifeflyer
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That would work, but it might be a waypoint hold. Toss the EnRoute chart overlay and see if there is an intersection or waypoint there.
As in, "hold northwest of WYPNT on Victor ###". or even "hold as published" if the hold appears in a chart.
As in, "hold northwest of WYPNT on Victor ###". or even "hold as published" if the hold appears in a chart.
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First problem is that you cannot hold northwest on the 120 radial because it extends southeast of the Gran Forks VORTAC. "Radial means from." right? You illustrated it correctly but said it wrong.
From the 7110.65:
-"6-4. HOLDING INSTRUCTIONS When issuing holding instructions, specify:
a. Direction of holding from the fix/waypoint.
b. Holding fix or waypoint.
NOTE-
The holding fix may be omitted if included at the beginning of the transmission as the clearance limit.
c. Radial, course, bearing, track, azimuth, airway, or route on which the aircraft is to hold.
d. Leg length in miles if DME or RNAV is to be used. Specify leg length in minutes if the pilot requests it or you consider it necessary.
e. Direction of holding pattern turns only if left turns are to be made, the pilot requests it, or you consider it necessary.
PHRASEOLOGY-
HOLD (direction) OF (fix/waypoint) ON (specified radial, course, bearing, track, airway, azimuth(s), or route.)
If leg length is specified,
(number of minutes/miles) MINUTE/MILE LEG.
If direction of turn is specified,
LEFT/RIGHT TURNS."
So it would be "Hold southeast of the Grand Forks Vortac on the 120 radial, ten mile legs."
Bob Gardner
midlifeflyer
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I don't agree Bob. The holding fix looks like a hold northwest on a fix along a southeastern radial. hold southeast would have a completely different picture with the airplane heading in the opposite of the direction depicted in the picture.
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Foul. OP mentioned only the VORTAC, not other fixes in the area. "Hold NW on the Grand Forks 120 radial" still can't be done.
Bob
midlifeflyer
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Yes.
midlifeflyer
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Look at the picture, Bob. It is very clearly a hold northwest of a fix, whether it be a named intersection or the 10 DME fix of the 120 radial.
mjburian
Cleared for Takeoff
I think he meant "hold northwest of the 10DME point on the 120 radial" based on the illustration. The hold is southeast of the VOR, but northwest of some point X DME on one of the southeast radials (the assumption is that the point is 10DME and it's the 120 radial, but those are just examples/guesses... JIXIR is another example at 14DME on the 117 radial).
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I don't care about the picture, Mark. The OP inquired about proper phraseology and I quoted from the controller's bible. The 120 radial extends southeast, that's a given. "Hold northwest" means that the holding airspace is northwest of the faciiity. That is why in any discussion of holding pattern entries it must be emphasized that a controllers first instruction is key: "Hold (cardinal direction) from (fix/facility)..." because that should be the direction of the initial turn. E. G, "Hold northwest on the......" As soon as I cross the fix/facility I am turning northwest. Other factors might dictate just what course in the northwest octant I am turning to, but I am without question going to turn to the northwest.
Bob
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midlifeflyer
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Memo to self: Check all references before posting.
Instrument Procedures Handbook, Figure 3-18. Although it illustrates holding on a fix rather than a facility, compare the location of the holding airspace with the holding instructions in the context of this discussion.
Bob
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I surrender. However, the OP asked about phraseology, and the illustration from the IPH answers that question. The way he phrased the clearance in the OP it was not clear to me just what he was asking for.
Bob
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I was taught that the cardinal direction would be your outbound course, so in the picture above, the outbound course is northwesterly so that is why I guessed it was "Hold northwest", because the aircraft is holding northwest of the 10DME fix.
Bob, how would you phrase the instruction for the Allegiant aircraft?
Bob, how would you phrase the instruction for the Allegiant aircraft?
But he's not holding at the VOR. He's holding at a point 10 miles out on the radial. He has two options, NW or SE of that point.
The hold is NW of the 10 mile fix. The radial is 120 degrees (which is SE of the VOR).
Assuming the VOR is back near KGFK
The correct instructions are:
Hold NW of
10 mile fix on
120 degree radial (from VOR)
right hand turns (they are assumed right hand if omitted yes but I always include them in these explanations)
Think of the 10 mile fix as an intersection waypoint. Your inbound leg of the hold is NW of it. That 10 mile waypoint is at the SE end of the inbound leg of the hold, and should be marked on the drawing for clarity, but isn't
And REMEMBER, you ALWAYS make the inbound leg the straight leg to the holding way point, so you can wiggle it in. NEVER do you fly a 180 turn and then come to the holding way point. NEVER! That kind of a hold is IMPOSSIBLE due to there would be TWO different holds for the same instruction!
Assuming the VOR is back near KGFK
The correct instructions are:
Hold NW of
10 mile fix on
120 degree radial (from VOR)
right hand turns (they are assumed right hand if omitted yes but I always include them in these explanations)
Think of the 10 mile fix as an intersection waypoint. Your inbound leg of the hold is NW of it. That 10 mile waypoint is at the SE end of the inbound leg of the hold, and should be marked on the drawing for clarity, but isn't
And REMEMBER, you ALWAYS make the inbound leg the straight leg to the holding way point, so you can wiggle it in. NEVER do you fly a 180 turn and then come to the holding way point. NEVER! That kind of a hold is IMPOSSIBLE due to there would be TWO different holds for the same instruction!
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If you don't understand it, draw all four possible holds at the 10 mile fix on the 120 radial and CORRECTLY label each one.
Then draw the two possible holds on the 120 degree radial AT the VOR and CORRECTLY label each one of those.
Then draw the two possible holds on the 120 degree radial AT the VOR and CORRECTLY label each one of those.
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luvflyin
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For what it's worth, the holding fix is the "Grand Forks one two zero radial, one zero mile fix." The words DME are not used.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Worth a lot since the question was about the phrasing.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Btw, the multiple posting of the graphic was "pilot error."
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Despite what luvflyin' says, I'll go with the phraseology used in the Instrument Procedures Handbook: "Hold northwest of the 10 DME fix on the 120 radial of the Grand Forks VORTAC, ten mile legs."
Bob
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Ari
Responding to a couple of thoughts above:
The plane appears to have been on final to 17R when it turned left to hold. None of the IAPs at KGFK show a missed approach procedure leading to where this plane went. The IFR chart does not depict a hold in that vicinity. So it seems not to be a published hold.
The GFK VOR is on the field at KGFK. The holding fix looks like it is probably JIXIR, which is the 14 DME fix on V55 (GFK 117 radial). Look at the other airport shown east of the holding pattern, which is probably KCKN. On the IFR chart, that airport appears east and slightly north of JIXIR on the IFR chart, which matches up with the holding pattern from Flight Aware.
Probably ATC just said "hold northwest of JIXIR on Victor 55."
But I'm enjoying learning how I would be told to hold at an arbitrary DME fix.
The plane appears to have been on final to 17R when it turned left to hold. None of the IAPs at KGFK show a missed approach procedure leading to where this plane went. The IFR chart does not depict a hold in that vicinity. So it seems not to be a published hold.
The GFK VOR is on the field at KGFK. The holding fix looks like it is probably JIXIR, which is the 14 DME fix on V55 (GFK 117 radial). Look at the other airport shown east of the holding pattern, which is probably KCKN. On the IFR chart, that airport appears east and slightly north of JIXIR on the IFR chart, which matches up with the holding pattern from Flight Aware.
Probably ATC just said "hold northwest of JIXIR on Victor 55."
But I'm enjoying learning how I would be told to hold at an arbitrary DME fix.
What pilots seem to get mixed up on is the cardinal direction indicating the hold is on that cardinal direction side of the holding waypoint. That and forgetting the inbound leg of the hold always goes toward the holding waypoint.
Pilot has to know where the hold is before he can figure out how to enter it. That requires the pilot to understand the holding instructions. Most instructors tends to emphasize the entry procedures and skip over the holding instructions and how the hold is built.
In the ATC environment, pilots are given several minutes of time budget before they arrive at the hold. Instuctors tend to spring holds on the student likity split. You have to give the student time to understand where the hold is, draw the hold, and figure out how to enter it. It takes time.
Pilot has to know where the hold is before he can figure out how to enter it. That requires the pilot to understand the holding instructions. Most instructors tends to emphasize the entry procedures and skip over the holding instructions and how the hold is built.
In the ATC environment, pilots are given several minutes of time budget before they arrive at the hold. Instuctors tend to spring holds on the student likity split. You have to give the student time to understand where the hold is, draw the hold, and figure out how to enter it. It takes time.
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luvflyin
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Thats a pretty good way to "picture" it. The direction you will be flying when outbound is "the direction the pattern is 'from the fix' " It always gets muddied up when the holding "course" gets mixed up with direction the pattern is from the fix
Another case of FAA publications contradicting themselves. The controllers handbook says they are to say it one way and a pilots handbook says you should hear them say it another way. Like I said, for what it's worth. Probably a coin flip on which way you're going to hear it.
3. NAVAID FIXES
Describe fixes determined by reference to a radial/localizer/azimuth and distance from a VOR-DME/VORTAC/TACAN/ILS-DME as follows:
a. When a fix is not named, state the name of the NAVAID followed by a specified radial/localizer/azimuth, and state the distance in miles followed by the phrase “mile fix.”
EXAMPLE
“Appleton Zero Five Zero radial Three Seven mile fix.”
“Reno localizer back course Four mile fix.”
b. When a fix is charted on a SID, STAR, en route chart, or approach plate, state the name of the fix.
c. Use specific terms to describe a fix. Do not use expressions such as “passing Victor Twelve” or “passing J Eleven.”
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I think we all know what both DME and mile mean. Big deal. They are getting away from the DME equipment since everyone uses GPS now, so ditch the DME and go with mile....
My point is, pilots understand it either way.
My point is, pilots understand it either way.
MAKG1
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There is a difference when you're close to a navaid at high altitude. DME = slant range distance.
Indeed there is a difference, but it is obvious that the FAA isn't terribly concerned about a slight variation in determining distance from a station. If they were, they would have never allowed GPS to be used in lieu of DME. It is something to be aware of however, when crossing a fix at altitude that your DME will never read zero.
The issue that pilots are having a hard time understanding is the radial is SE of the VOR, but the HOLD is NW of the holding waypoint. This only happens at a fix away from a VOR, not at the VOR itself.
Four possible holds at a fix on one specific radial.
Two possible holds on one specific radial at the VOR.
Four possible holds at a fix on one specific radial.
Two possible holds on one specific radial at the VOR.
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luvflyin
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The FAA is concerned. There are many separation minima that address the issue. When applying separation between DME and RNAV equiped aircraft using ATD (along track distance) the DME aircraft must be either below 10,000 or beyond 10 miles from the station. There are others that get more complicated when separation is being used and VOR, DME and RNAV aircraft are mixed. There is even a phraseolgy to be used when applying DME separation to RNAV aircraft operating along VOR airways/routes. It is "Use DME distances." This is all Non Radar stuff so we dont hear it much.
aterpster
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aterpster
Many RNAV airplanes cannot use DME distances because they are not DME equipped.
luvflyin
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Yeah. My guess is probably most airplanes that have both were older ones that got upgraded to GPS later and the DME was left in. And there are probably a few DME/DME RNAV's still flyin around
BigBadLou
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Aside from the fruitful discussion on the technical side of holds, has anyone noticed the quality of the hold pattern in the picture?
This was flown by an A320 so one would expect perfect round 180's done by the A/P. Was this maybe hand-flown? Some of those corners look mighty sharp.
This was flown by an A320 so one would expect perfect round 180's done by the A/P. Was this maybe hand-flown? Some of those corners look mighty sharp.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
I wouldn't expect perfect round. Perhaps the best part of the picture is - if the highly trained airline crew of an A320 does't do perfect holds, we probably shouldn't be all that anal about perfection ourselves. Wasn't it someone on this board who reported an instrument student getting frustrated because he couldn't get that perfect 1 minute inbound in high winds?
I don't see anything in the AIM or the ATC handbook on this. However when they talk about assigning DME Arcs, they indeed say "10 mile arc" rather than "10 DME."
I suspect as with the rules for DME substitution, they figure that the error due to slant range is negligible.
I suspect as with the rules for DME substitution, they figure that the error due to slant range is negligible.
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Ari
It's Allegiant. They upcharge $5/seat extra if you want the plane to have a working autopilot.
$10 for a working pilot.
aterpster
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aterpster
DME slant range is ignored in the design of instrument approach procedures. As to DME Arcs, the minimum radius is 7 miles.
So, I just want to confirm because there seems to be some confusion. The instructions from ATC would be:
- hold northwest
- GFK 120 radial
- 10 DME
I understand he's holding southeast of the GFK VOR, but he is in fact holding northwest of the holding point. So therefore the cardinal direction from ATC's instructions would be to hold northwest?
- hold northwest
- GFK 120 radial
- 10 DME
I understand he's holding southeast of the GFK VOR, but he is in fact holding northwest of the holding point. So therefore the cardinal direction from ATC's instructions would be to hold northwest?