Larry in TN
En-Route
Actually, you can. Create a series of user waypoints with one every ten degrees on the arc.
ABC 360/20
ABC 010/20
ABC 020/20
etc.
DME arcs in San Diego
- Thread starter Blueangel
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ABC 360/20
ABC 010/20
ABC 020/20
etc.
Go ahead and fail the GPS..... If the plane has a DME.... then flying an arc is not that hard....
If the plane does NOT have a DME , then the DPE cannot make the pilot fly that approach...
BillTIZ
Final Approach
Victorville CA KVCV has a step down on the arc, VOR/DME Rwy 17
MAKG1
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MAKG
If you don't have a DME, you won't legally be given a DME arc on the checkride (GPS or not).
StinkBug
Cleared for Takeoff
GPS counts as DME, but if that's your only DME and he fails it then you can't fly the arc.
BillTIZ
Final Approach
That was not the question... Yes that has been OTS for a long time. The question was finding an arc with step down points along the arc.
When the do have low IMC it's blowing dust so hard you are not going there anyway.
sferguson524
Pattern Altitude
I've flown into VCV when it was IFR. we had to fly the ILS and circle to the opposite runway
Again, the PTS says that the DME tasks do not apply if you don't have DME.
It matters NOT if you have a GPS. The examiner should not assign the DME tasks if there is no REAL DME in the aircraft.
aterpster
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aterpster
Not often, but it does. Low ceilings and snow...well before climate change.
StinkBug
Cleared for Takeoff
I have a 430, no separate DME. Had to fly an arc. Distance is distance.
If you don't have a dedicated DME, but do have a GPS are you legal to fly an approach that requires DME? Every source I've seen says yes, so why would being tested on a DME arc be any different. Whether you're getting the distance from a ground beacon, or satellites you are getting distance.
StinkBug
Cleared for Takeoff
Here you go, even the FAA seems to agree. If it can be used on an approach, there's no reason it can't be used on a checkride. Distance Measuring Equipment means just that, equipment that measures distance. GPS fulfills that role.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/90-108.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/90-108.pdf
Your DPE didn't follow the PTS then.
But there you are WRONG. The PTS disclaims the DME tasks for aircraft that don't have DME. Now, if you had an approach that required DME that you could legally substitute a GPS for that is one thing, but the instructor can't reasonably request you to go fly a random DME arc. It's contrary to the PTS.
eetrojan
Pattern Altitude
Are you relying on the fact that the instrument rating PTS says that 'any reference to DME arcs ... shall be disregarded if the aircraft is not equipped with these specified navigational systems."?
IF AC 90-108 specifically tells us that a suitable RNAV system (e.g. GPS) can be used for a DME procedure (e.g. flying an arc based upon DME), isn't it reasonable for the DPE to regard the aircraft as being "equipped" for DME navigation and require the student to use the GPS for that purpose?
Not saying you're wrong, just trying to understand. It certainly seems that reasonable people could disagree on the answer.
By the way, the first page of AC 90-108 seems to suggest that it only applies to GPS being a "substitute" for DME equipment that is installed but INOP, or an "alternate" for DME equipment that is installed but the pilot doesn't want to separately monitor it.
Would the answer change for somebody taking a practical test in these different planes?:
(1) DME equipment installed and fully operational
(2) DME equipment installed, but disabled and marked INOP
(3) DME equipment not installed at all
I'm thinking that the first two may be fair game for the DPE to require that GPS be used to fly a DME arc, but the third one not.
Exactly, each task that says something about DME arcs specifically has a NOTE that says "disregard if you don't have DME."
If you don't have a DME, these tasks are effectively NOT in the PTS.
It has SQUAT to do again with whether you can effectively use the GPS as a substitute. The regs don't say the PTS has to have coverage of all regimes of instrument flight. While I have a DME, I don't have an ADF so I did no ADF tasks.
Ghery
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Ghery Pettit
My last IPC. VOR/DME 35 into KOLM. The DME arc is really simple. The easiest way is to get set up on the arc and then set the DME to show speed to station. Keep that on 0 and you're pretty well set. Go back to distance to station now and then to make sure. In the meantime, set the OBS to the inbound radial and watch for it moving off the peg.
Or, fly in a plane in an approach certified GPS (like the GNS 430W in one of the club planes) and let it do the work for you. That countdown timer to the next turn really makes things even simpler.