Discouraged!!!! Hammond, Louisiana

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GuillCT

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GuillCT
So damn discouraged right now. Guys im truely sadden about this tragic incident where I am/was doing my training. My heart goes out to the families involed.


http://www.wdsu.com/news/local-news...shore-regional-airport-officials-say/35842792

My question is how do you move on from this accident as a student pilot??? It almost makes you re-think it sometimes. But I knew this could happen from the beginning but it feels so different being so close to home. :frown3:
 
2 things

1. Flying with your instructor, and as a student solo flying is very safe statistically speaking. This is because you are actively taking lessons, practicing, and have an instructor looking over your shoulder.

2. Private pilots have, across the group an accident record that is not that good. But the accidents that do happen are usually preventable, and a studious pilot with an active approach towards safety is at very low risk.



So enjoy being a student pilot and once you get your pilot's license, continue to be an active learner and be concerned about safety. You will be just fine. Studying accidents is a part of this.

For me, the books "the killing zone" (dont remember the author) also "the next hour" by richard collins are good books to read after getting your pilot's license. Participating here on POA helps because we discuss accidents, usually in a semi-constructive way.
 
dell30rb said:
2. Private pilots have, across the group an accident record that is not that good. But the accidents that do happen are usually preventable, and a studious pilot with an active approach towards safety is at very low risk.
Click to expand...

This bears repeating. Plenty of people die in GA accidents due to error or stupid pilot tricks.

Running out of fuel.
Flying in weather above their skill level(excess wind, IMC, storms, icing).
Losing control of the airplane.
Stupid things like aerobatics, reckless low level flight, flying above gross weight.
Not keeping proficient in things like emergency procedures.
Not following procedures and checklists(IE taking off with full flaps, mixture leaned, fuel on wrong tank, etc...).

I've got no statistics but if you take steps to ensure you don't do the things above, your chances of living go way up.

Your link gives no accident details but my thoughts and prayers are with the families of those killed.

You have to make your own decisions, but I would encourage you to not let this discourage you, but rather think about how YOU can survive when a bad situation comes up or even better, how to prevent the bad situation from occurring in the first place.
 
Don't sweat it.....

40,000 people die on the U.S highways every year.....

And I bet you and all your loved ones still drive every day...
 
fiveoboy01 said:
IE taking off with full flaps, mixture leaned, fuel on wrong tank, etc...)
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You're going to freak a student pilot out with those examples.
- You can take off full flaps, just treat it as a go-around and hit your various v speeds before retracting.
- Sometimes you have to lean the mixture out before takeoff, leaving it rich is more of a threat in those conditions ie hot and high...
- Fuel on 'wrong' tank is only an issue if that tank is empty. Don't take off with empty tanks.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Your link gives no accident details but my thoughts and prayers are with the families of those killed.



I've been waiting on details myself. It just happened around two hours ago. I'm curious if it was a issue with the plane or was it pilot error. I can only think/image it was a issue with the plane. I think it was a student and a CFI but more details to come.:confused:
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OkieAviator said:
You're going to freak a student pilot out with those examples.
- You can take off full flaps, just treat it as a go-around and hit your various v speeds before retracting.
- Sometimes you have to lean the mixture out before takeoff, leaving it rich is more of a threat in those conditions ie hot and high...
- Fuel on 'wrong' tank is only an issue if that tank is empty. Don't take off with empty tanks.
Click to expand...

I didn't even clink on the link...

But if it was a 150 /152 and two people on board....

With full flaps, I bet it cannot accelerate to VY...:dunno:
 
I can't imagine how these accidents happen on CAVU days with the exception of mechanical failure or practicing spins or stalls and something breaks or goes terribly wrong obviously.

An engine out or most trouble shouldn't end up with a smoking hole on a CAVU day....

RIP to the involved.
 
N801BH said:
I didn't even clink on the link...

But if it was a 150 /152 and two people on board....

With full flaps, I bet it cannot accelerate to VY...:dunno:
Click to expand...

Yah would still have to do the typical take a notch out at Vx and what not.
 
N801BH said:
I didn't even clink on the link...

But if it was a 150 /152 and two people on board....

With full flaps, I bet it cannot accelerate to VY...:dunno:
Click to expand...

This brings up a bad memory. When I was looking into flight training I had a voicemail from a flight instructor who died the next day in an over-gross LSA. I believe they got it to climb but then tried to turn while still slow...
Anyway, it was a little weird when I realized I was hearing a dead person on the voicemail.

To the OP: shake it off. They bought the farm, not you. There are no guarantees in this world except nobody gets out alive. I suppose that's sorta harsh. Oh well, I've been hauled to the hospital and I've hauled people to the hospital. When it is your time, it's your time but don't go without a fight.
 
Go read "The Killing Zone" and "The Thinking Pilot's Flight Manual" 1 and 2. All on Amazon. Lots of good wisdom and puts things in perspective. If you read those and still feel good about flying go do it. Flying is not as safe as driving a car, flying is dangerous to an extent. Lots of people think riding motorcycles is too much of a bad risk to take and it is roughly equal to general aviation in fatalities.

The good news is you can increase your percentages of staying alive by minimizing risks. Double and triple check things, stay proficient. Go take an aerobatic emergency procedures course. Have your emergency procedures down pat. Stay away from bad weather. If you want to be even safer don't fly IFR or at night. Though I love me some night flying.

Point is, there are risks in aviation and it is up to you to determine if they are acceptable. If someone knew they would kill themselves and their wife and kids in a plane crash, would they still fly and say they died doing what they love? Hard to say.

Read those books and always continue your education. There is a plethora of good info out there in books, internet forums, and YouTube. It will keep you sharp outside of your flight training. Highlight information in books that is relevant to you and re-read them from time to time. Don't get overconfident. Most importantly have fun and be safe.

How many people can say they break the bounds of earth and can fly like the birds? Not many. There is something magical about being up in the air among the clouds. Being smart and proficient goes a long way. It is worth it to me, I hope you come to the same consensus.
 
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OkieAviator said:
You're going to freak a student pilot out with those examples.
- You can take off full flaps, just treat it as a go-around and hit your various v speeds before retracting.
- Sometimes you have to lean the mixture out before takeoff, leaving it rich is more of a threat in those conditions ie hot and high...
- Fuel on 'wrong' tank is only an issue if that tank is empty. Don't take off with empty tanks.
Click to expand...

It's good for a student pilot to be a little freaked out. Makes em safer.

Sure you can take off full flaps, if you forget to check them prior to takeoff. Unless you know of a training airplane that specifies full flaps for takeoff in the POH. Doubt one exists. A PPL killed himself and his pax taking off at gross or near gross and flaps extended fully.

Airport in question is 47' MSL. If you lean aggressively on the ground like I do to help avoid fouling plugs, it's important to remember putting the mixture back to rich prior to takeoff.

Of course you don't take off without fuel. Who's to say you have one tank almost empty and one half full? Doesn't have to be empty for it to be an issue. My checklist specifies "fullest tank" prior to the run up which is a good mental jogger of which tank has more in it, if they're not already verified to be at the same level.

I realize every scenario is different depending on area of the country and the aircraft... My point was that religious checklist usage can help a lot with mitigating risk, and the scenarios above are just a few examples.
 
Twins are a different story, way to many people trying to do things too quick in a twin....
 
It can sober you up, but as mentioned above, if it does not paralyze you, it can help you remember the consequences of pilot error. I literallywatched a 172 spin into the ground when I had literally just taken an intro flight with my instructor that week, and he'd flown the accident aircraft two days before. I saw the two kids up front and the kid in the back who survived. They were barely older than me. Two fatalities and pretty sobering. An instructor I'd almost gone with and who taught across the hall from my IP crashed with a student during my IR training. Other stuff has happened, too. The stuff we love has both exhilarating possibilities, and deadly consequences for failure of mind or machine, but the good news is a competent pilot who trains, prepares, and takes precautions is more likely to survive.
 
I have had friends that died in plane crashes. It is hard. They were professionals. That doesn't make it any easier or make any difference. But I moved on. I tried to learn from their accident to make myself a more knowledgeable pilot to keep my passengers safe.

One accident, I was supposed to be on that plane, but was late getting to town. I second guessed myself for a year on that one. Heck I still second guess myself after all these years. Would I have made a difference? Would I have had the chart out and used the GPS mileage to show we haven't passed that mountain yet and need to keep our altitude? Would I have rode the plane into the mountain with him? Why didn't he wait for another hour until I made it there? I don't know and will never know. I have lost a lot of sleep trying to find the answer to those questions.

Yet I still fly because that is what I do.
 
Zeldman said:
I have had friends that died in plane crashes. It is hard. They were professionals. That doesn't make it any easier or make any difference. But I moved on. I tried to learn from their accident to make myself a more knowledgeable pilot to keep my passengers safe.

One accident, I was supposed to be on that plane, but was late getting to town. I second guessed myself for a year on that one. Heck I still second guess myself after all these years. Would I have made a difference? Would I have had the chart out and used the GPS mileage to show we haven't passed that mountain yet and need to keep our altitude? Would I have rode the plane into the mountain with him? Why didn't he wait for another hour until I made it there? I don't know and will never know. I have lost a lot of sleep trying to find the answer to those questions.

Yet I still fly because that is what I do.
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I'll bet you would have made a difference and it would have been a routine flight because it wasn't your time yet. Fate is fickle. Or the butterfly effect if you want to go there.

It could have been something as simple as you looking at foreflight on a tablet that they didn't have or just you checking the GPS and being more aware of where you are.

I think most pilots operate on the paradigm of when it's your time it's your time, or either the old "it can't happen to me" I'm not sure which. Maybe both.
 
N801BH said:
Don't sweat it.....

40,000 people die on the U.S highways every year.....

And I bet you and all your loved ones still drive every day...
Click to expand...

:yes:


Someone also died in a car crash today, yet you're still going to drive to work.
 
Thanks for all the feed back guys, Im sure it will feel different everytime I return back to this airport for training.
 
GuillCT said:
Thanks for all the feed back guys, Im sure it will feel different everytime I return back to this airport for training.
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You'll get used to it. There is a TON that training and rehearsing can do to improve your personal safety, but...

Aviation is fundamentally a risk-taking venture. If you can't do the Jesus check (control swipe) while mentally accepting that on any given day, you may not come back after takeoff- find another hobby, because loss of confidence WILL kill you.
 
When I first got into skydiving I was told during the first jump course that if you stay in the sport long enough, you would almost certainly see someone die or lose a friend to the sport. It would be up to you at that point to decide if it was still worth it to continue in the sport.

I was on my THIRD training jump when I guy flew his high speed canopy through a tree and crashed onto a concrete pad 50 yds away from me. He didnt die but was busted up and air-lifted to a hospital in pretty bad shape.

Since them I have lost quite a few people I know. I was at that point and I decided it was worth it and I continue in the sport to this day. Flying is the same.
 
GuillCT said:
So damn discouraged right now. Guys im truely sadden about this tragic incident where I am/was doing my training. My heart goes out to the families involed.


http://www.wdsu.com/news/local-news...shore-regional-airport-officials-say/35842792

My question is how do you move on from this accident as a student pilot??? It almost makes you re-think it sometimes. But I knew this could happen from the beginning but it feels so different being so close to home. :frown3:
Click to expand...

There are deadly car accidents everyday in the news around here yet we barely think twice about driving... :dunno:
 
GuillCT said:
Thanks for all the feed back guys, Im sure it will feel different everytime I return back to this airport for training.
Click to expand...

We've only had one fatal accident at our home airport since I have been flying. And it was completely preventable. Airplane several years out of annual, local shop provided the owner with a list of discrepancies including a stuck turbo wastegate. Owner flew the airplane anyway and the stuck wastegate caused the fatal crash about 1mi from the runway.
 
I'd really like to know what my chances of dying in a small airplane crash are when all the little stuff is taken care of. No known mechanical issues, fuel tested, weight and balance correct, good weather, etc... Is it on par with driving a car at that point?
 
GuillCT said:
So damn discouraged right now. Guys im truely sadden about this tragic incident where I am/was doing my training. My heart goes out to the families involed.


http://www.wdsu.com/news/local-news...shore-regional-airport-officials-say/35842792

My question is how do you move on from this accident as a student pilot??? It almost makes you re-think it sometimes. But I knew this could happen from the beginning but it feels so different being so close to home. :frown3:
Click to expand...
To me it just reinforces what we're taught. You can't take the risk out of everything you do in life, but you CAN fly safely. When your CFI (hopefully) tells you that you shouldn't try to turn back to the runway after an engine issue on takeoff, listen to him. Most of the lessons of aviation have been learned by other people showing us what not to do. Heed those lessons.
 
Challenged said:
I'd really like to know what my chances of dying in a small airplane crash are when all the little stuff is taken care of. No known mechanical issues, fuel tested, weight and balance correct, good weather, etc... Is it on par with driving a car at that point?
Click to expand...
My personal opinion is that flying GA is much safer than driving. In a car you could be driving along at a safe speed, in a safe car, alert, well-rested, sober, following all the traffic laws, and some drunk runs a red light and hits you. Not a whole lot you can do about it. In aviation, in contrast, there are about a dozen mid-air's a year. Basically if you go down, it's a good bet that it's in some way your fault. Not true in a car. (Texting is the new thing). I feel much safer in an airplane away from all the maniacs and idiots on the roads.
 
Challenged said:
I'd really like to know what my chances of dying in a small airplane crash are when all the little stuff is taken care of. No known mechanical issues, fuel tested, weight and balance correct, good weather, etc... Is it on par with driving a car at that point?
Click to expand...

Add to the list your own currency and proficiency (including a current instrument rating), as well as good judgment, and you'll beat cars and run neck-and-neck with the major airlines for safety.
 
Sometimes the gig is up and its your time. It can happen. Get over that and you'll be fine. So long as you don't let it happen all is good. Folks recommended some good resources, but keep in mind that there are guys who grow old flying airplanes. Lots of them, in fact.
 
"Taking the preliminary 2013 fatality rate in general aviation of 1.05 fatalities for every 100,000 hours of flight time and scaling it up to 2 million hours gives a comparison rate of 21 general aviation fatalities per every 2 million hours. This suggests that stepping on a private plane is about 19 times more dangerous than getting into the family sedan."

http://www.livescience.com/49701-private-planes-safety.html

It'd be nice if we had some hard numbers on flight hours and what not to actually have a better idea of what we're dealing with. I do my best to mitigate risks and try to just enjoy flying, but at the same time if I knew that there was a 50% chance of dying every time I went up, I probably wouldn't be flying.

I'm sure we all have our own personal risk number of where we feel comfortable, but as an analytical sort of person, it's just annoying to me to have to guess about the risk factor involved.
 
OP - you can't dwell on accidents. They will happen. You can, however, greatly reduce your chance of becoming a statistic by being vigilant and proficient in ALL aspects of your flying. So many of GA crashes and/or fatalities are pilot error.

Crashes always make the news. What's unfortunate is the fact that pilots flying with thousands of hours of incident-free flying hardly ever make the news. Keep that in mind.
 
Challenged said:
"Taking the preliminary 2013 fatality rate in general aviation of 1.05 fatalities for every 100,000 hours of flight time and scaling it up to 2 million hours gives a comparison rate of 21 general aviation fatalities per every 2 million hours. This suggests that stepping on a private plane is about 19 times more dangerous than getting into the family sedan."

http://www.livescience.com/49701-private-planes-safety.html

It'd be nice if we had some hard numbers on flight hours and what not to actually have a better idea of what we're dealing with. I do my best to mitigate risks and try to just enjoy flying, but at the same time if I knew that there was a 50% chance of dying every time I went up, I probably wouldn't be flying.

I'm sure we all have our own personal risk number of where we feel comfortable, but as an analytical sort of person, it's just annoying to me to have to guess about the risk factor involved.
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Two points.
First, if you haven't you might want to read The Next Hour: The most important hour in your logbook by Richard Collins.
Collins is just as obsessed with flying safety and statistics as most rational pilots, and this book reflects his current thinking after a lifetime of flying and writing about it.
Second, and related to the above title, even if we had the exact statistical probability for our own aircraft type and experience level, knowing that the number is XYZ (very likely a minuscule percentage) won't mean that we won't crash on our very next flight.
As Collins says, it's the next hour that counts, not the thousands you may have flown safely.
 
OP: Late to the thread here, but sounds like you got your indoctrination into realizing how serious this flying above the ground in aluminum beer cans thing can be.

Use it as a reminder as to why you should take your responsibility as PIC seriously as you continue forward in your life and training.
 
Having a good crash worthy aircraft helps the mental game a little.

The Meyers 200D is ranked very high because of it's steel cage construction. My own 180 if you can believe it is ranked very high. Skywagons have a terrible rep for ground loops but one of the best for fatalities. They don't crash, they bend. The energy upon landing can be brought down so low on a STOL plane that it's rarely fatal. You might get bunged up, but you don't die.

Anyway, I'm rambling and not helping OP's deal one bit. When you see it happen or know the person it's hard.
 
mryan75 said:
My personal opinion is that flying GA is much safer than driving. In a car you could be driving along at a safe speed, in a safe car, alert, well-rested, sober, following all the traffic laws, and some drunk runs a red light and hits you. Not a whole lot you can do about it. In aviation, in contrast, there are about a dozen mid-air's a year. Basically if you go down, it's a good bet that it's in some way your fault. Not true in a car. (Texting is the new thing). I feel much safer in an airplane away from all the maniacs and idiots on the roads.
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Your personal opinion and the statistics/facts/math don't agree. Not to mention the fact every pilot thinks he is a great and safe pilot that would never make a mistake. Same guys that die every week say the same thing. Some from this very forum. You hear how they were a great guy and awesome pilot yet they still bought the farm right into the ground.

And are you blaming engine outs on pilot error? They may be considered a pilot error due to banking too steep and stalling/spinning into the ground but there are plenty of experienced pilots who still make this mistake. Or maybe the options are so bad you are in trouble regardless. I do agree risks can absolutely be decreased but still.......

Yes you can certainly minimize your risks but even the best sometimes have a brain lapse or misjudge a mechanical issue. To think flying a small GA plane is as safe as driving in your car (or even safer lol) is pure delusion.
 
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TexDeuce said:
Your personal opinion and the statistics/facts/math don't agree.
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Citation for that?

I want to know exactly how much more risk I'm taking flying than driving my car.

You seem to know, so let's see your data.

(Just opening the door a crack so Ron W here who's done the homework, can rock your world a bit once you make a statement with some actual statistical meat to it. You're pre-warned...)

Let's see your hole cards. You're going to have to back away from the grand statement of imminent death and couch it with something, and it's going to be quite entertaining.
 
I'm not a CFI but I'v had one thing beat into my head in training "never quit flying till you stop" So many people get scared and quit flying the plane.

As an example, all planes can do an engine out so why all the crashes? Many that you see are in fields so whats difference from a wheat field and a grass strip. I could be wrong but it seems like they just quit flying, now i understand hitting something or if theres no place to land.

Maybe I'm wrong or missing something.
 
loch1957 said:
I'm not a CFI but I'v had one thing beat into my head in training "never quit flying till you stop" So many people get scared and quit flying the plane.

As an example, all planes can do an engine out so why all the crashes? Many that you see are in fields so whats difference from a wheat field and a grass strip. I could be wrong but it seems like they just quit flying, now i understand hitting something or if theres no place to land.

Maybe I'm wrong or missing something.
Click to expand...
It isn't necessarily because they 'quit flying'. Many of those accidents (and likely the one in the original post) happen because the pilot loses control of the airplane during the emergency. You have a much better chance of surviving a forced landing if the airplane is under control when it touches the earth than if you are along for the ride.

Now what is true is that sometimes people get startled/caught off guard when the crap hits the fan and in that moment they lose control of the airplane. That is an important point to keep in mind.
 
GuillCT said:
So damn discouraged right now. Guys im truely sadden about this tragic incident where I am/was doing my training. My heart goes out to the families involed.

My question is how do you move on from this accident as a student pilot??? It almost makes you re-think it sometimes. But I knew this could happen from the beginning but it feels so different being so close to home. :frown3:
Click to expand...

1. I don't worry about you at all having an accident. If you're here reading these posts as a student, chances are high you are going to be hyper-vigilant.

2. Your CFI has you practice the ABC's of an engine out probably on every flight. Do some practice engine outs at a slow airport from above pattern. Mine got me there under foggles, removed foggles, engine out with airport under the belly (his method of trying to hide the obvious choice).

3. Every accident report you read is going to help you in most cases as a reminder of "don't do that" ....

4. Lastly, if it is something not attributable to pilot error, flying the plane until it stops moving will probably save your life
 
We read the the accident reports, we study what happened, weather. Poor pilot technique? Mechanical maintenance neglect? We review what happened to educate ourselves, to learn not to make the same mistake.

Those that fail to study history, are bound to repeat it. -- Gen Patton.
 
A previous post had the "rate" 19 times higher than driving, but i imagine that's probably low. The FAA doesn't know how many GA hours are flown, so the rate is an estimate, or, more accurately, a guess.

Maybe just mitigate the things you can control, like dumb pilot tricks, and understand the rate isn't relevant if you avoid the big errors?

Stick with it, see if the creepy feelings subside. If not, maybe find another endeavor? I've seen a few fatals; it happens. It always will, unless we also kill the joyful aspects.
 
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