Disappointed in Stec and avionics shop

[stapler101]

The short version: The vertical speed was not working on my stec 60. I went to an Stec authorized avionics shop, they put in a computer out of their plane and it proved to be the problem.
The owner suggested that he send my computer to stec for an estimate because the repair cost might be too much just to have vertical speed.
Today I got a call that my computer was fixed and that I owed almost $800 PLUS their labor.
I called the owner and he said he would call stec to see why they did the repair without the estimate that he requested on the repair order he sent them.
He says that stec says they DO NOT give estimates!!
I probably have no recourse but I will do my best to spread the word of this bad practice at every chance I get.
Am I looking at this wrong or have I been had??

 

[AdamZ]

Well as far as aviation goes $800 is not too bad but as far as business practices go, it is wrong.

 

[N801BH]

The short version: The vertical speed was not working on my stec 60. I went to an Stec authorized avionics shop, they put in a computer out of their plane and it proved to be the problem.
The owner suggested that he send my computer to stec for an estimate because the repair cost might be too much just to have vertical speed.
Today I got a call that my computer was fixed and that I owed almost $800 PLUS their labor.
I called the owner and he said he would call stec to see why they did the repair without the estimate that he requested on the repair order he sent them.
He says that stec says they DO NOT give estimates!!
I probably have no recourse but I will do my best to spread the word of this bad practice at every chance I get.
Am I looking at this wrong or have I been had??

Heck...... That's easy.... If the repair order said "request estimate" Stec should have just shipped it right back. The fact that they repaired it overrides their " They do not give estimates".

Curious to hear how this plays out.. keep us informed.

Ben.

 

[Kelvin]

Heck...... That's easy.... If the repair order said "request estimate" Stec should have just shipped it right back. The fact that they repaired it overrides their " They do not give estimates".

Curious to hear how this plays out.. keep us informed.

Ben.

Thinking the same thing...or made the call to let someone know that this is their policy....

 

[flyersfan31]

$800 to fix an STEC sounds like a bargain.

What's the alternative?

 

[stapler101]

Stec made it clear that they would not absorb any of the cost and I can't even think of not paying the avionics shop even though they suggested the estimate to start with.
The owner, today, stated again that he requested an estimate before the work was done.
He is an authorized stec dealer and therefore should be aware of stec "no estimate" policies.
I do, under the circustances, think the shp should waive the service fee. They told me today that they "would only charge me for 1 hour".
Heck, it took at least 5 minutes to take out my old computer and put theirs in for me to try.

 

[stapler101]

Mr. Joisey,

800 probably is a "bargain" but the only aspect of my stec that was not functioning was vertical speed.
I truly can's say if I would have ok'd the work if I had know the cost up front.
i was expecting 300-500 but I guess the way it is being handled rubs me wrong.

 

[stapler101]

I sent Stec the following:


My complaint does not exactly fit your “survey” but it is a legitimate complaint.
About 3 weeks ago I had one your authorized service centers, xxxxxxxxx, check out my Stec 60.
Vertical Speed was not working.
The shop owner, Chris, suggested that he send the computer to you FOR AN ESTIMATE because, in his opinion, the cost of repair might not be worth it just to have vertical speed.
They called me today and said the computer was fixed and that I owed almost $800 PLUS their service charge (1 hour) for removing the unit.
I asked about my “estimate” and Chris said that his work order sent to you clearly stated that he wanted an estimate.
He said he called your company and was told that Stec did not give estimates!!
Please tell me that is a miscommunication!!
Surely an authorized agent of your company would know and/or be liable if incorrect information is given a customer that results in almost $800 in charges.
I am not sure of what action I will take but if this is not resolved I will consider any avenues I find available.

 

[Doggtyred]

You got off cheap. I know its a pretty penny.. but.. if you really wanted it fixed, it will be worth every penny.

I think that the manufacturer's practice sucks, but its likely that way for a reason. If you spend $$$ for the staff and labor to perform "free" estimates and everyone opts out of the repairs, pretty soon you are losing money. Small engine repair is another field that deals with this. Even though the repairs are usually cheap, the labor to troubleshoot can be significant, and as a result, the largest part of the repair.

Work out a payment plan if you need to, and live and learn.

 

[John Baker]

If you have all transactions in writing, and they performed the work without a valid, signed and dated "work order", you probably don't owe them squat. You can pay the bill and take them to small claims court, or, you can not pay the bill and let them take you to court, you will probably win.

Then the other edge of the blade. What are you going to do the next time it breaks down? What if they refuse to work for you, do you have an alternate repair station?

John

 

[flyersfan31]

You got off cheap. I know its a pretty penny.. but.. if you really wanted it fixed, it will be worth every penny.

I think that the manufacturer's practice sucks, but its likely that way for a reason. If you spend $$$ for the staff and labor to perform "free" estimates and everyone opts out of the repairs, pretty soon you are losing money. Small engine repair is another field that deals with this. Even though the repairs are usually cheap, the labor to troubleshoot can be significant, and as a result, the largest part of the repair.

Work out a payment plan if you need to, and live and learn.

Good point. Heck, I have to pay the auto service center for their time, even if I don't opt to go with a fix.

Mr. OP - I understand how you feel. $800 is a kick in the teeth when you were expecting just an estimate.

 

[Kelvin]

I think that the manufacturer's practice sucks, but its likely that way for a reason. If you spend $$$ for the staff and labor to perform "free" estimates and everyone opts out of the repairs, pretty soon you are losing money. .

Allow me to take a different stance. I didn't see anywhere that the OP expected a FREE estimate...Have I missed something? Why would anyone with an airplane expect ANYTHING for free....(except forum advice of course) He 'seemed' OK with paying the shop to troubleshoot the issue.

I am in the video audio and lighting business...Issues we face are as complex as any avionics issue ever could be...We have a policy and SCREAM it at the top of our lungs, put it in writing that estimates are NOT free...For this reason; Once we have troubleshot a problem, we have essentially fixed the problem.

At that point, we give the customer an option...we give an assessment of the issue and our best estimate to remedy the problem...They can either pay us for all of our effort to that point and abandon the gear or we can proceed with the repair. Some customers make the decision (and rightfully so) to abandon a piece of gear for a number of reasons and simply replace it...Some of these situations are the equivalent of taking a hamster to the vet...

IMHO this is really all about lousy follow up and communication on someone's part...

Work out a payment plan if you need to, and live and learn.

Live and learn...I am not following what this gentleman did wrong and needs to learn...He asked for an estimate...didn't get one and instead got a bill...

I understand him being upset...

 

[SCCutler]

I agree that better communication is called-for. By the same token, given the relatively modest market size, one does not likely expect a free estimate, because troubleshooting takes genuine effort (or, as is so often the case, you get a very *high* estimate, one designed to cover all contingencies).

The other thing you should keep in mind, is this: the autopilot is designed as a system, with functional logic interacting to allow all operational modes; just because the only identified failure mode, now, was the VS mode, does not mean that there was not an incipient further failure coming.

I am as cheap as any CSOB, but it was me I'd have paid the $800.00 and been glad to have it fixed, because I wouldn't be wondering when it would fail further.

 

[RMCN172RG]

By the time you know which $50 part is the problem you've spent the 5 hours in labor.

So if they called and said the cost to repair is $800 and you say no.

Then they say OK our time into it is $500 and it will be another $250 to put it back together and return ship it.

I had the same thing, except it stayed in the shop, happen to me on my radios when I blew them both by being really stupid. The parts cost was the same but the time to fix #2 seemed a lot more reasonable to me.

When I look at "estimates" it's always what is minimum $XXX, and maximum I want before we stop and do something else?

Using the words airplane, auto pilot and computer with a cost of $800 plus and hour to remove and install seems reasonable to me for a repair.

 

[Dr. O]

So, you would have dumped a $15,000 autopilot if the repair estimate was $300 more than you expected?


denny-o

 

[steingar]

Sorry to be so cavalier at your situation, but welcome to aircraft ownership. It will cost whatever it costs, get done whenever it gets done, and until then your aircraft is unairworthy. You want a view of how bad it can get, have a look at Av Shiloh's maintenance/crash project megathread on the red board.

I have to agree with the other participants. Be glad they didn't take you to the cleaners. They're the only game in town, so they can do whatever they like. And yes it sucks. Folks wonder why we pilots are a dying breed.

 

[stapler101]

Thanks for all replies. I am trying to look at the positive. I do enjoy the vertical speed working!
I guess,after a while to cool off, I am not as unhappy as I thought I was.
I got a really nice reply from stec. I am going today to get my new working computer.

 

[kmead]

It,s a changed world for aviation. S-tec/Megget is horrible company to deal with on service. I never get an repair estimate or a reliable turn time. They're the only game in town. As far as cost, I just got a 1500 autopilot back for a Meridian and paid $2400.00 to repair the VS fast knob. Be glad you don't have Megget ADHRS, let's say the altimeter wont pass cert., heading off, or it just dies, you are now out $13,000.00 ea. and maybe 2 months downtime (no service in the US). I have a big list of these people, there is no other place to go.

Let's say it fails in 1 week. Service is fun, warranty is even better. After 32 years of this, I don't think I'm getting bitter at all.

Kevin

 

[flyersfan31]

It,s a changed world for aviation. S-tec/Megget is horrible company to deal with on service. I never get an repair estimate or a reliable turn time. They're the only game in town. As far as cost, I just got a 1500 autopilot back for a Meridian and paid $2400.00 to repair the VS fast knob. Be glad you don't have Megget ADHRS, let's say the altimeter wont pass cert., heading off, or it just dies, you are now out $13,000.00 ea. and maybe 2 months downtime (no service in the US). I have a big list of these people, there is no other place to go.

Let's say it fails in 1 week. Service is fun, warranty is even better. After 32 years of this, I don't think I'm getting bitter at all.

Kevin

I believe it. In my one service experience with them, they were pretty miserable. Like, making-GM-seem-well-run miserable.

 

[Sticky1]

Hummmm,

If you are p i s s ed and want to make a splash then post your origional comment on

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/index.php

All the manufacturers read this forum since the following is in the thousands....

 

[flyersfan31]

I bitched about Avidyne on the Malibu Owners website, and shortly thereafter I got emails plus a personal call from a customer rep who had a tech guy on the line with him. I was pretty impressed.

 

[stapler101]

I am not happy!!
After 256.00 in fuel (2 trips to shop) and 870.25 repair bill, the autopilot computer IS NOT fixed!
It does exactly what it was doing before the service.
Now I know I have at least 256.00 more fuel expense just to take it back and pick it up again.
Since stec will not give estimates, I guess they could charge again.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It will cost whatever it costs, get done whenever it gets done, and until then your aircraft is unairworthy.

Wow. Do you not even want the aviation world to be a better place?

And also - Since when does a malfunctioning vertical speed mode on an autopilot make the aircraft unairworthy? To quote something I heard recently,

 

[flyingcheesehead]

FWIW, I've never had to deal with S-TEC from a repair standpoint - The S-TEC in the 182 has always worked flawlessly. I did ask them a question at Oshkosh once about it hunting just a bit (±20 feet or so) in altitude mode in turbulence, and they gave me a card with an easy step-by-step list of how an autopilot should be troubleshot.

Sending the computer in was about #8 on the list.

Seems they get a LOT of perfectly-functioning autopilot computers into their repair facility because the owner/avionics shop/maintenance shop didn't check the other things on the list before pulling it and sending it in.

 

[iflyforfun]

I am not happy!!
After 256.00 in fuel (2 trips to shop) and 870.25 repair bill, the autopilot computer IS NOT fixed!
It does exactly what it was doing before the service.
Now I know I have at least 256.00 more fuel expense just to take it back and pick it up again.
Since stec will not give estimates, I guess they could charge again.

I thought initial posting was fairly annoying, so I sent STEC an e-mail suggesting they check out this thread ...

Me - "I would suggest you go to www.pilotsofamerica.com and take a gander at how your customer service is playing out to a large pilot community. "

I also told them that, for me, I thought the repair cost was reasonable, but the "ask for a quote and get a bill" process was not acceptable. Finally, I told them that I didn't have skin in the game and just thought they should know.

I sent the e-mail to their generic e-mail link on their web at 10:00pm Thursday and got a response from a Tech Rep before 5:00pm Friday. They were actually aware of this particular customer issue and responded to me appropriately.

I'd say, keep working S-Tec. Seems like they care, but big organizations simply suck at coordinating between customer, distribution channel and manufacturer. Their statement to me was, "We take personal customer service seriously." Heck, they responded to me, so I'll buy their position for now.

Sounds to me like you've got an issue with the "authorized dealer". Push S-Tec, but sounds like your dealer (a) can't troubleshoot, and (b) doesn't understand the policies of the OEM.

Best of luck with this,
Jeff

 

[SCCutler]

This should be interesting.

They may have been bought-out by a big company that was then bought out by another big company, but in the end, the folks in Mineral Wells are still just that - folks - and I bet they *want* to help.

If Cobham intend to remain viable in the marketplace (and I think they do), they'll have to grant to their front-line people the authority to male fair customer service decisions and deliver quality service to all of their users.

Let's hope they do that now!

Keep us posted, because we're watching.

 

[stapler101]

Well, I went back to the shop today and picked up the computer.
Remember, this is the 4th trip at around $130 in fuel per trip.
The shop put in the computer and I headed for home happy to have the problem resolved.
WRONG!
The computer is NOT FIXED!!
Vertical speed still does not work.
The auto pilot works perfect with a borrowed computer but when they put the one in that stec has now repaired twice it will not work.
Let me do the math again-- $520 in fuel (plus I will have to go back again when the computer is returned), $870 repair bill, took off work for 3 of the trips and still don't have a working unit. Priceless!!
Tell me again why I should not have expected a "free" estimate!!

 

[N801BH]

Man...... That sucks..

 

[flyersfan31]

Well, I went back to the shop today and picked up the computer.
Remember, this is the 4th trip at around $130 in fuel per trip.
The shop put in the computer and I headed for home happy to have the problem resolved.
WRONG!
The computer is NOT FIXED!!
Vertical speed still does not work.
The auto pilot works perfect with a borrowed computer but when they put the one in that stec has now repaired twice it will not work.
Let me do the math again-- $520 in fuel (plus I will have to go back again when the computer is returned), $870 repair bill, took off work for 3 of the trips and still don't have a working unit. Priceless!!
Tell me again why I should not have expected a "free" estimate!!

I think you have an issue with your avionics shop. Why didn't they test fly it before having you come down to pick it up?????? You shouldn't be the one discovering the problem.

 

[Anthony]

Sorry to be so cavalier at your situation, but welcome to aircraft ownership. It will cost whatever it costs, get done whenever it gets done, and until then your aircraft is unairworthy. You want a view of how bad it can get, have a look at Av Shiloh's maintenance/crash project megathread on the red board.

I have to agree with the other participants. Be glad they didn't take you to the cleaners. They're the only game in town, so they can do whatever they like. And yes it sucks. Folks wonder why we pilots are a dying breed.

What he said.

 

[Ted]

Finding good shops is difficult. Once you find a good shop, you'll find that shop is good at some things, but not others. And you'll end up getting overcharged somehow.

Example: My autopilot shop also claims to be a full service repair station. The two times I've let them touch my plane for repairs they've screwed up royally and overcharged me for it. However, I'm very pleased with their autopilot work. Learned my lesson.

Sounds to me like you have a bad autopilot shop.

 

[stapler101]

My only complaint with the shop is that did not know that stec would not give an estimate. They are the ones who first suggested an estimate because, as they said, "you may not want to spend a lot just to have vertical speed".
They are not keeping my plane.
They put their computer in, it works, they let me keep their computer and send mine to stec for repair.
Since their computer allows my auto pilot to work perfect, I cannot believe that the problem is anything other than the computer.

 

[TMetzinger]

Swapping their good computer for your problem unit is a good resolution in my opinion - now it's THEIR problem to work out with S-Tec.

 

[stapler101]

I guess I should have said they let me borrow their computer, probably only because the plane it goes in (the shop owners) is down for rebuild.
I was surprised that no one at the shop will fly the plane to test it and the owner, a pilot, refused to fly we me to test the unit.

 

[Maxmosbey]

I think you have an issue with your avionics shop. Why didn't they test fly it before having you come down to pick it up?????? You shouldn't be the one discovering the problem.

This doesn't have anything to do with the OP's problem, but I don't know if there are a lot of test flights that go on. I've worked in shops where none of the mechanics working on planes were pilots. Some shops feel that there is a liability issue flying a customer's plane. So they will not do a test flight unless it is required that there is one. Another thing that happens a lot is that someone will come in with a problem and to solve it the mechanic would have to make adjustments that might not be within the specs, so he wouldn't do it. That is the case once in a while with rigging. If the mechanic checks the travels and tensions and they are within limits, the mechanic is not likely to change it to suit the pilot.

 

[Ted]

This doesn't have anything to do with the OP's problem, but I don't know if there are a lot of test flights that go on. I've worked in shops where none of the mechanics working on planes were pilots. Some shops feel that there is a liability issue flying a customer's plane. So they will not do a test flight unless it is required that there is one. Another thing that happens a lot is that someone will come in with a problem and to solve it the mechanic would have to make adjustments that might not be within the specs, so he wouldn't do it. That is the case once in a while with rigging. If the mechanic checks the travels and tensions and they are within limits, the mechanic is not likely to change it to suit the pilot.

I won't allow shops to test fly my airplanes. My mechanic is allowed to, but he actually never has. He always has me do test flights, and will occasionally accompany me on them.

Really what it comes down to is that I can count the people I trust to solo my airplane on one hand, including me. So, when asked by the avionics shop if I want them to test fly the plane, I refuse.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I was surprised that no one at the shop will fly the plane to test it

Well, they probably don't want this to happen. (Plane was in avionics shop for autopilot work - On the 3rd test flight (after 3rd adjustment, presumably) the engine failed shortly after takeoff and the plane didn't quite make it over the airport fence.)

It's all about liability these days.

 

[Maxmosbey]

I won't allow shops to test fly my airplanes. My mechanic is allowed to, but he actually never has. He always has me do test flights, and will occasionally accompany me on them.

Really what it comes down to is that I can count the people I trust to solo my airplane on one hand, including me. So, when asked by the avionics shop if I want them to test fly the plane, I refuse.

I don't like to fly customer's airplanes. First of all, I'm not checked out in a lot of planes. But the big thing is that if I fly a customer's plane, I end up owning everything that goes wrong with it for the next six weeks. It ain't worth it.

 

[Ted]

I don't like to fly customer's airplanes. First of all, I'm not checked out in a lot of planes. But the big thing is that if I fly a customer's plane, I end up owning everything that goes wrong with it for the next six weeks. It ain't worth it.

I'm about at the point where I don't even want shops starting the engines. I let the avionics shop do an oil change on the 310, thinking how can you screw up an oil change? Simple, flood the right side Continental and spend 10 minutes burning up my starter trying to make it work. If it fails soon, you can bet I'm going to be pounding on their door about it. The guy claimed the engine was impossible to start. I hopped in and on the second blade turn it fired. Yeah, really hard to start.

 

[rpadula]

So, stapler, how far away from Mineral Wells are you? I have known pilots who have taken their planes there to have their autopilots worked on. especially some of the older models.