Dilemna-Upgrade plane or buy new?

Damn, that's the touchscreen 430W that costs near 3 times as much??

I'd say if you're the type that buys a new GTN650, you probably want to look at a new Cirrus or TBM

A new 650 from aircraft spruce is about $10500. A new 430W is $8500.

Our club recently put 650's in all 6 of our 172's and Warrior II's to replace an aging fleet of apollo gx60's and king GPS's. We found the 650 to be a better financial decision because it will likely be supported many years after support for 430's is discontinued.
 
A new 650 from aircraft spruce is about $10500. A new 430W is $8500.

Our club recently put 650's in all 6 of our 172's and Warrior II's to replace an aging fleet of apollo gx60's and king GPS's. We found the 650 to be a better financial decision because it will likely be supported many years after support for 430's is discontinued.

Gotcha
But who I their right mind would buy a NEW 430W??

You can buy a 10/10 used one for fraction of the price, I don't understand why someone would flush thousands of dollars for no good reason??
 
I upgraded airplanes last year. I like cessna products myself. Started with a 172. Very slow but fun plane and cheap. Found a 205 which will haul anything my truck will. Much faster than a 172 but nice feel. Went thru the cessna factory last year at this time and they had a Corvallis there. Barley looked at it and told my wife not much use wasting time looking that over. Well not even 6 months later I started looking at the columbia,s as I liked the G1000 and all the extra,s and air conditioning and the speed looked good. Well guess what resides in hangar now! Was hard to justify the money but every time I fly it I like it more. I probably have over hundred hours in it and will fly it ths month maybe 50 hours.(already have 30 plus hours) I really like the speed and fuel burn not even bringing in traffic a/c xm radio. Winds aloft etc. It's not cheap but I feel not a bad deal either. I can't think of a older airplane that would do as much. My problem is I can't bring myself to sell the 205 which is my in the air pickup with van capabilities or its little brother the 172 and now also it's athletic cousin the 172 hawk Xp!
 
I'm not sure if anyone already asked the OP, but how many hours does he have, how much does he fly and what licenses/ratings does he hold.

Also here's your Bo, Mooney, Columbia killer, 4 place, reclining rear seats, io360, 260mph 75% at 8.5k, and you can get one for 100-150k ish :D


InFlight%20Duo.jpg
 
Hey guys,
To answer a few of the questions I have been flying coming up on 2yrs now and have over 250hrs. Instrument rated and working on Commercial ticket. I fly at a minimum 1-2 times a week. I do animal rescues to build hours. I fly friends for lunch just to get them interested in aviation. I take my kids on trips to see things or visit family. I fly friends places if they need to go somewhere just so I can build hours. I have no desire to be an airline pilot. I think it would be cool to be a corporate type pilot though. I am just recently US Army Retired Vet that is looking for new career in aviation. I should have listened to some of my mentors 14 yrs ago and went to flight school in the Army but I just wanted to jump out of planes at the time(Over 3000times).

I bought the GTN650 with the thinking that I was going to keep the Warrior for quite a while. I most likely will take it with me and put in whatever I plan to get.

As much as I would like to have a Vans RV-10, not seeing that happen. The ones I do find are out of my price range or already sold. Plus unfortunately, I really don't have the opportunity to go clear across country to look at one(I am in NC). Hoping I can find one on the east coast at a reasonable price. But if not I am ok with something else.

I do like the Cirrus but some of my close pilot friends have steered me away from them because of the cost and per hour costs. I don't know how true that is but from what I hear from some actual owners it doesn't seem that bad. So maybe looking at older SR20 models.

I want to stay with FG to keep insurance and maintenance costs down. I could be wrong.

I know this may sound bad, but I want a modern plane. What I mean by that is, no 1950-1980's orange, bright red, or lime green interior, a beat up panel held on with some mixed bag of screws and washers. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with those planes, I have one and she works wonderful. Flies me and my kids safely around this Great Nation of ours. But this is going to be my retirement home, so to speak, so I want something nice.

So, hopefully that clears a few things up.
 
A new 650 from aircraft spruce is about $10500. A new 430W is $8500.

Our club recently put 650's in all 6 of our 172's and Warrior II's to replace an aging fleet of apollo gx60's and king GPS's. We found the 650 to be a better financial decision because it will likely be supported many years after support for 430's is discontinued.


It was a better option for me as well and I love it! I learned on a 430W and it is not much different. I thought the same thing, the 430 support will be gone soon and always think to the future.
 
Depending on budget I would look at an older SR22 over a newer SR20. You can pull back the throttle and get about the same fuel economy but the difference in climb and high altitude performance is huge.
 
As for cost the main driver on insurance is hull value and not make. No matter what the make, maintenance goes up with goodies. The one unique Cirrus expense is the 10 year chute repack. It will be about $10K for a G1 and more like $8K for a G2 and later due to better access. These prices are from memory but should be good ballpark numbers. My Cirrus is similar to a friend's Bonanza in maintenance but his Bonanza is decked out too.
 
As for cost the main driver on insurance is hull value and not make. No matter what the make, maintenance goes up with goodies. The one unique Cirrus expense is the 10 year chute repack. It will be about $10K for a G1 and more like $8K for a G2 and later due to better access. These prices are from memory but should be good ballpark numbers. My Cirrus is similar to a friend's Bonanza in maintenance but his Bonanza is decked out too.

Thanks Peppy.. I have a few in my sights and there a few older SR22 and a newer SR20. If the maintenance isn't as bad then I would opt for one.

As far as the accidents in a Cirrus, I personally think most of these are pilot error.
 
UPDATE---

My plane blew oil all over the windscreen the other day. Looks like may need to fix the pushrod and tube cover. Hoping the valve isn't stuck and not needing to be sent off for repair/replace/rebuild.

The joys of ownership.. right.. well this will set me back now...
 
Damn, that's the touchscreen 430W that costs near 3 times as much??

I'd say if you're the type that buys a new GTN650, you probably want to look at a new Cirrus or TBM

Hmm.

New GTN650, maybe $15k installed.

New Cirrus, maybe $750k out the door.

New TBM, maybe $2M out the door.

There is a very, very big difference there.

Gotcha
But who I their right mind would buy a NEW 430W??

You can buy a 10/10 used one for fraction of the price, I don't understand why someone would flush thousands of dollars for no good reason??

Well, we just bought a new 430W and put it in the 310. Why we bought a new one:

- Used ones were NOT a fraction of the price, in fact in all the searching we did we weren't able to find the used ones any cheaper than the new ones by more than a couple hundred bucks.
- Our avionics shop echoed this statement, and said that the used ones are of a very high value now. The introduction of the GTN650 has not caused the 430W prices to decrease significantly.
- New one comes with warranty, easy support, and no hassles (hassles = $$$ since the avionics shop bills by the hour).

If you can really find them that much cheaper, then you should buy them and resell them - you'd make good money.
 
To the OP: Wayne made a good summary of the differences in airplanes and things to look for. If you upgraded to a Mooney, Bonanza, 210, etc., you'd notice a significant difference in time and be happy with the result, especially on days with nasty headwinds.
 
Dave,
Just curious, how much did it cost you to get the fuel tanks sealed properly?
 
Isn't that the one the owner was complaining of being unaffordable due to high MX costs?:rofl:

No no no... that was the OTHER red and white Mooney with a 530W/430W panel, JPI, new prop, and new fuel bladders. ;)
 
Yee-ikes!!! That's amazing. Sorry you're stuck with that kind of whip-out.

In retrospect, do you think Maxwell would have caught that problem on a pre-buy?

It looks like all said and done it will be close to 14k for te bladders. Haven't gotten the final bill yet.
 
Yee-ikes!!! That's amazing. Sorry you're stuck with that kind of whip-out.

In retrospect, do you think Maxwell would have caught that problem on a pre-buy?

Maybe. When we did the prebuy there wasn't any fuel on the bottoms of the wings or belly and they hadnt tried to clean it (it was dirty but no stains) but the tanks were also low - if we had topped it off it might have started leaking and we would have caught it.
 
To the OP: Wayne made a good summary of the differences in airplanes and things to look for. If you upgraded to a Mooney, Bonanza, 210, etc., you'd notice a significant difference in time and be happy with the result, especially on days with nasty headwinds.

Thanks.. I will give the Bonanza's and 210's a look..
 
It's about the nicest one on the market right now

Especially with all the new parts. ;)

Yee-ikes!!! That's amazing. Sorry you're stuck with that kind of whip-out.

When we had the bladders installed by O&N on the M20F I used to fly, it was $11k just for that. So $14k sounds about right.
 
Maybe. When we did the prebuy there wasn't any fuel on the bottoms of the wings or belly and they hadnt tried to clean it (it was dirty but no stains) but the tanks were also low - if we had topped it off it might have started leaking and we would have caught it.

My experience indicates that the plane typically needs to be topped off and allowed to sit for a while to catch it. That said, I would suspect any Mooney that hasn't had bladders done already and especially one that's sat for a while to have issues with leaky tanks and some of the other things you had issues with. I'd guess whoever buys it will end up with a pretty reliable plane, maybe need one more annual worth of higher expense.

Thanks.. I will give the Bonanza's and 210's a look..

Don't overlook Mooneys and Comanches as well. I'm personally not a particular fan of Bonanzas or 210s - the others are worth a look.
 
FWIW, all pre-buys that I've seen include topping the tanks and watching the hangar floor for at least 24 hours. I remember being concerned at the time you were inspecting it, but was not in position to opine.



Maybe. When we did the prebuy there wasn't any fuel on the bottoms of the wings or belly and they hadnt tried to clean it (it was dirty but no stains) but the tanks were also low - if we had topped it off it might have started leaking and we would have caught it.
 
Apologies for a long post, but here are some notes from our longtime club A&P on fuel leaking in the M20J's

Basically some fuel seeping is not a problem.
The Mooney has a design problem regarding the sealant on the fuel tanks. If the tanks are not kept constantly full, then the sealant dries out and fuel seeping starts. But to get more than 1.5 full-size people and bags in the airplane, weight and balance demands that the pilot only fill the tanks to the tabs (leaving the tops of the tanks dry.) Fuel to the tabs is essentially never an operational problem because at 9 gph, that's 5.5 hours of fuel (or more conservatively 5 hours at 10 gph.) That's a lot of sitting and in a J-model Money a four-hour range can easily get you to Boston, Orlando/Tampa, or to the Chicago area (unless you're blasting into a serious headwind.)

But because we routinely fuel to the tabs, the sealant dries out and fuel starts to seep on the top of the wing when the tanks are filled past the tabs to the very tops. This creates a mess and might be a concern to a passenger looking out the window who does not realize that an external fuel stain or seep is permitted (in the maintenance manual) and is not unsafe.

But pilots new to the Mooney do not know this fact and have to be continuously educated about fueling procedures. (We had a flight canceled today for this reason.) Re-sealing the tanks generally takes two weeks or more of labor and can cost upwards of $6,000. So to help out, please remember to only have the Mooney tanks filled to the tabs! Thanks.

For general interest, below follows a blurb I put out in 2006. When we were operating three Mooneys for awhile. Everything stays the same !

Fly Smart!

John Hunter

******************************************************

Mooney Notes

By: John Hunter

August, 2006


I hope that you are enjoying (temporarily) the fact that we have three Mooneys on the line! (Hopefully we'll be back to an affordable two within a month or so.)

I note that some of you have completed your checkouts in 26M. Nice plane, isn't it? This fact compels me to send you a few notes for your consideration which apply to operating our Club Mooneys.

SUNSHIELDS. When putting the sun shields in place please be careful not to crumple or overly bend them. Once weakened, they get soft and they do not stay in position. For the front shields, insert them from the opposite side and then slide them behind the steel bar to the other side. Stuffing them in directly quickly weakens them. (And like any airplane part, they are not cheap!) Slide the right one in first (insert left, slide right) and then the left one last (the one with the strap.) Reverse order when removing. Thanks.

FLAT SPOTS ON TIRES Here we go again! (For the Nth time.). There are brand new tires on both 5FW and on 26M, but in the last two weeks, there have been flat spots applied to a tire on each airplane. I sometimes despair as to what it will take to "get through" to otherwise skilled pilots. Any suggestions?

We've tried all of the harangues we can think of. But we're apparently not reaching everyone. I know that no one does it intentionally, and most everyone that I've actually caught in the act at first denies it, because they can't believe that they are actually doing it. Unawareness and denial are powerful forces in the human brain!

Let it roll, Let it ROLL, Let IT ROLL, LET IT ROLL. When you first think, about braking, DON'T do it! Let it Roll, Let it Roll, then let it roll some more. And when you've slowed to about 40 knots or less, then gingerly, gently, slowly, tentatively, slightly, hardly, lightly, (and perhaps bravely) come up on the brakes. What else can I say?

INTERIOR CARE. Today I found the carpet on the co-pilot's side of 26M shoved forward and bunched up around the rudder pedals. No big deal except that it indicates unawareness (and potentially could cause rudder pedal "stiffness" that might concern the next pilot.

OIL and FUEL. Please note that it has been Club policy for decades to NOT carry oil in the airplane. Oil stains are occasionally the result, and technically, according to the FAA, any item over one pound must be appropriately restrained. Also, in our SOPs we state the Mooneys should be fueled only to the tabs. This is for a reason. Regardless of the fact that tabs in the Mooney conservatively gives you 5 hours of fuel (and a Mooney goes to Tampa or Boston or Toronto in under 4 hours) filling the tanks in a Mooney will generally show stains or even seeps in the top of the wing. (Seeping fuel usually makes passengers nervous, although it is perfectly legal according to the FAA approved maintenance manual.) So please, DON'T fill the tanks in a Mooney!
 
FWIW, that same logic is parroted by the owners and pilots of most Citations, King Airs and others of their ilk. If the tanks are full, it's well-known that they will leak, so the crews don't fill them for most trips and fill them immediately prior to take-off on longer ones. Numerous publications and commentaries are available regarding fuel leaks and seeps, but the the MM and other documents specific to the aircraft govern airworthiness and are in most cases very specific.

In a recent transaction in which I represented parties on both sides of a multi-plane deal, tanks on two Citations required sealant and repair, a King Air F-90 needed four new bladders. All of the bladders were date-stamped and more than 30 years old.

Apologies for a long post, but here are some notes from our longtime club A&P on fuel leaking in the M20J's

Basically some fuel seeping is not a problem.
 
Numerous publications and commentaries are available regarding fuel leaks and seeps, but the the MM and other documents specific to the aircraft govern airworthiness and are in most cases very specific.

According to our guy the MM does have specific language regarding airworthiness and leaks + seeps. None of our mooneys leak at 50 gallons (tabs) but they will seep when full and apparently ours are within spec. Its SOP to fill to 64 only before a flight that will consume more than 14 gallons.

Our planes are always left at tabs and typically fly several times per week. The 6k reseal job mentioned is typically a once in a decade expense for our fleet
 
You'll know for sure if you sell one subject to a pre-buy.

According to our guy the MM does have specific language regarding airworthiness and leaks + seeps. None of our mooneys leak at 50 gallons (tabs) but they will seep when full and apparently ours are within spec. Its SOP to fill to 64 only before a flight that will consume more than 14 gallons.

Our planes are always left at tabs and typically fly several times per week. The 6k reseal job mentioned is typically a once in a decade expense for our fleet
 
Interesting discussion, definitely learned something on fuel seep/leaking.

I remember when the Cheyenne got new bladders. It was really bad - marked its territory everywhere it went. That job wasn't very fun to do, and was very smelly. I think those bladders were also original on a 197x plane.
 
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