Dilemna-Upgrade plane or buy new?

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gkdave

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Dave
Dilemma - buy new plane(prefer-Vans RV-10 ) with Autopilot, nice paint and interior. Or do I continue to put money into my '79 Piper Warrior? Already put a GTN650, now want autopilot(Cost $16k). Desperately needs new paint and the interior could use a upgrade.

My thought is a faster, newer experimental that I can get all the nice bells and whistles(For MUCH less than just an autopilot). Need 4 seats, which will limit my choices. And I am not able to build one. So now I have to find a hard to find RV-10.

Curious to everyone's thoughts. Do I continue to put money into a already fully owned airplane or do I go for a newer one with the things I am looking for?

And if anyone knows of a RV-10 for sale please PM me, you guys that build them, do build great planes.

Thanks
 
gkdave said:
Dilemma - buy new plane(prefer-Vans RV-10 ) with Autopilot, nice paint and interior. Or do I continue to put money into my '79 Piper Warrior? Already put a GTN650, now want autopilot(Cost $16k). Desperately needs new paint and the interior could use a upgrade.

My thought is a faster, newer experimental that I can get all the nice bells and whistles(For MUCH less than just an autopilot). Need 4 seats, which will limit my choices. And I am not able to build one. So now I have to find a hard to find RV-10.

Curious to everyone's thoughts. Do I continue to put money into a already fully owned airplane or do I go for a newer one with the things I am looking for?

And if anyone knows of a RV-10 for sale please PM me, you guys that build them, do build great planes.

Thanks
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A RV-10 is going to cost between 120k and 200k. Nice planes but not cheap.
 
I am in a situation now that I can afford to buy one. I would love to know how to build a RV-10 myself. Just not sure I could do it. Or have the tools, time and most important-PATIENCE.
 
Does the warrior work for you? The RV10 will be a big step up in both capability and likely total cost of ownership. Sure as an EAB you can dodge some cost hurdles but you still have a plane with a a bigger, thirstier engine and I would imagine a CS prop. Insurance cost would also likely go up for a while.
 
Need to know more about your mission. If the mission requirements are better fit by an RV-10, buy one and sell the Warrior. Otherwise you'll end up having a plane that doesn't fit your needs, just has the bells and whistles you want.

Also if you want the RV-10 and can afford it, might as well buy it.
 
gkdave said:
I am in a situation now that I can afford to buy one. I would love to know how to build a RV-10 myself. Just not sure I could do it. Or have the tools, time and most important-PATIENCE.
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I'm sort of in a similar situation. I have a very nice 1977 172n with a lot of upgrades so I could never get out of it what I have in it. I would sure like to have something newer, faster, longer range and maybe even air-conditioning (I am in Florida). But when I compare the real and total cost of upgrading with the benefits, I just can't make it work. I already have a nice plane which gets me up and down and there and back and that is the most important thing. All those other things would be nice, but not THAT nice. After all, I have a plane to fly. A faster plane would mean I don't fly as much, or I would fly as much but pay a lot more for it.

Still, I often hear that Mooney or Bo calling.
 
Just make sure you review the various threads on E-AB vs production aircraft so you know all the advantages and disadvantages of each. Beyond that, if you have the money, and the RV-10 really does meet your requirements, go for it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Need to know more about your mission. If the mission requirements are better fit by an RV-10, buy one and sell the Warrior. Otherwise you'll end up having a plane that doesn't fit your needs, just has the bells and whistles you want.

Also if you want the RV-10 and can afford it, might as well buy it.
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Well, I generally fly with my 2 kids to and from NC to Ohio. The Warrior does great, just not as fast. I know that shouldn't be the reason to upgrade. She is burning 9gph on average and has done well for us.

I guess my biggest concern is do I put $16k in for a A/P, $12k for desperately needed paint and undetermined $$ for interior? Not to mention getting close to overhaul/replacement engine in about 3 years.

My flying time is increasing and I see that not changing actually going to be more.

Skylane81E - I haven't really looked at the cost of insurance yet. So that could weigh in on my decision.

Thanks guys..
 
Seems like alot of money to dump into a plane that will still only be worth 40k if youre lucky.. id rather buy something else
 
marcoseddi said:
Seems like alot of money to dump into a plane that will still only be worth 40k if youre lucky.. id rather buy something else
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Marc - that's my thoughts as well. But I guess I could just keep it and be happy with what I have too.. just take me longer to get where I am going.. :)
 
Unfortunately the new economics of aircraft ownership suggest flying the thing until it is a clapped out run-out, scrapping or short selling it and purchasing another aircraft to do the same.

That said, if one looked at the increased cost of the new aircraft and the time it saves for the missions, that time would be pricey indeed. Were it me I'd be more worried about payload than speed. Those boys will grow up eventually.
 
I had a Warrior II that I used for cross-country commuting for a year (420NM one-way non-stop). It did it very cheaply; fuel exceeded my maintenance/insurance/hangar by 100% on 220hrs of operation. I still can't believe I flew it that much last year.

That said, it was an adequate single person commuter....but no way in heck I would have attempted to do what I did last year with passengers with any frequency, on 160hp. I thought about upgrading the engine versus buying an archer. All in all it just didn't make any sense to keep it.

Even 20HP wasn't worth the upgrade cost. I think if you can afford it just go into the RV-10.

I guess what I'm saying is don't put more money into a warrior. You still get warrior cruise speed, and worse, warrior climb rate, regardless of cosmetics and whistles. Your mission dictates 130KTS block times. Get the -10, or a 182, or a Bo, or a Tiger, or any 4 banger retract (172rg/177rg/pa28r). By the end of last year I was growing pretty tired of 110KTAS on that trip. If you can afford an RV-10, you can afford operating expense of all the airplanes I quoted. Rip the warrior panel and take it with you. Sell the thing at cost and put the avionics on your new purchase.
 
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steingar said:
Unfortunately the new economics of aircraft ownership suggest flying the thing until it is a clapped out run-out, scrapping or short selling it and purchasing another aircraft to do the same.
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Yup. My current plane is in need of upgrade in 3 of the 4 food groups (avionics, autopilot, paint/interior -- luckily my engine is tip-top). I'm shopping for the next plane, because every time I price upgrades, I end up placed one or two performance categories higher for the same money. :mad2:
 
Get a Cirrus SR 20 for your mission. Interior is best in class. IMO flies like a dream.... but I've never flown a jet, or acro.... Fuel cost is 10GPH for 150KTS True. Insurance will be sub 2K per year...
 
I've done KTTA (NC) to KAOH (OH) several times in a Warrior II.

Its much better in an M20J :)


You won't do it any cheaper in anything else, that's for sure. The warrior II has the best value in terms of cost to payload/speed ratio :)

However I switched from flying our club's 160hp Warrior II's to the M20J's and never looked back. My primary trip is KTTA - KMBT or KTTA - KAOH about once every 4-6 weeks. The operating cost for the warriors is about 100/hr and $160/hr on the M20J's. Figure 160ktas on 10gph for a well tuned mooney. The extra speed just makes these trips so much easier.

If you see yourself flying this trip more frequently get something that does about 150kts or better.
 
gkdave said:
The Warrior does great, just not as fast. I know that shouldn't be the reason to upgrade.
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WRONG!!! :wink2:

think of all the fuel and bathroom stops you eliminate with 160 knots over 115..
 
My personal experience/numbers:

RV-10 (IO-540 260hp) gets 165 KTAS at 13.5GPH.
Cabin is roomier than 182RG I used to fly.
 
Definitely depends on how much money you want to throw at the problem, and how you value your money too :) Best ROI to get what you want is dump your plane and get another used plane with the pieces you want, Money or Bo or whatever. They can be 25% -50% less than the RV-10, but will also be an older airframe, with potentially more maintenance issues vs a new airframe with lots of new shiny bits.
 
hey Dave, looks like it's only about 35 minutes from SOP to JQF if you were ever looking for a passenger :)
 
If you can afford the RV-10 you can also afford to look at a whole world of other planes too. If you were to get something like a 70s Bonanza you could buy an awful lot of expensive certificated parts before your total investment would match that of the RV. The same can be said of many other planes.

If you WANT an RV and can swing the admission price then by all means have at it, but for the same or less money you can have an older plane with very similar performance with enough money left over to maintain it for the rest of your flying days.
 
dell30rb said:
I've done KTTA (NC) to KAOH (OH) several times in a Warrior II.

Its much better in an M20J :)


You won't do it any cheaper in anything else, that's for sure. The warrior II has the best value in terms of cost to payload/speed ratio :)

However I switched from flying our club's 160hp Warrior II's to the M20J's and never looked back. My primary trip is KTTA - KMBT or KTTA - KAOH about once every 4-6 weeks. The operating cost for the warriors is about 100/hr and $160/hr on the M20J's. Figure 160ktas on 10gph for a well tuned mooney. The extra speed just makes these trips so much easier.

If you see yourself flying this trip more frequently get something that does about 150kts or better.
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If it weren't for growing kids I too would be screaming MOONEY!

Great planes but not the family truckster :wink2:
 
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Ok you convinced me. Don't put that kind of money into your old bird. But really do your research onRVs. One of the attractions is that you can work on them yourself but you already said that isn't your goal. For that kind of money you can get a real nice production plane.

gkdave said:
Well, I generally fly with my 2 kids to and from NC to Ohio. The Warrior does great, just not as fast. I know that shouldn't be the reason to upgrade. She is burning 9gph on average and has done well for us.

I guess my biggest concern is do I put $16k in for a A/P, $12k for desperately needed paint and undetermined $$ for interior? Not to mention getting close to overhaul/replacement engine in about 3 years.

My flying time is increasing and I see that not changing actually going to be more.

Skylane81E - I haven't really looked at the cost of insurance yet. So that could weigh in on my decision.

Thanks guys..
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jmp470 said:
Get a Cirrus SR 20 for your mission. Interior is best in class. IMO flies like a dream.... but I've never flown a jet, or acro.... Fuel cost is 10GPH for 150KTS True. Insurance will be sub 2K per year...
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John- I have looked at Cirrus as well but have had some of my pilot friends shy me away from them due to cost and fuel burn. You an owner?

Wow, thanks everyone for the great advice. It definitely helps. I would be satisfied with not getting a RV-10 if I could find a plane that isn't 30-40yrs old that I am going to be in the same situation. Old paint, ugly interior, needing a nav panel upgrade

My two girls are in their teens and within 5 years be out of the house and will be just me.

I have looked at the newer Archers. I haven't found a Mooney that has any upgraded interior since 1970. Could be looking wrong places.
I am open to other options so if anyone has suggestions, would love to hear them. Like what I am seeing so far.



eman1200 - made the trip to JQF couple weeks ago for the race, circle the track during pre-race on final to land. Was awesome! Then walked into the FBO and met Willie Robertson from Duck Dynasty.

thanks again guys!
 
I owned a SR 20 and a very good friend of mine owned a RV 10. While his was faster, it burned more fuel. We flew flights of two along the Eastern sea board. We also flew into Sun N Fun together. I really like his plane, but IMO the Cirrus had better fit and finish. Like every plane they are expensive. But my insurance was $1700ish, fuel burn was 10GPH for 147-152KTS true, depending on how clean the wing was.
I bought my 2006 for $160K, he had $140K in his (I forget his exact #). But, I had TCAS and more goodies on the inside.
His took off quicker than mine, but we had no problems landing on 2600 strips together.
So IMO it depends on what you want.
 
jmp470 said:
I owned a SR 20 and a very good friend of mine owned a RV 10. While his was faster, it burned more fuel. We flew flights of two along the Eastern sea board. We also flew into Sun N Fun together. I really like his plane, but IMO the Cirrus had better fit and finish. Like every plane they are expensive. But my insurance was $1700ish, fuel burn was 10GPH for 147-152KTS true, depending on how clean the wing was.
I bought my 2006 for $160K, he had $140K in his (I forget his exact #). But, I had TCAS and more goodies on the inside.
His took off quicker than mine, but we had no problems landing on 2600 strips together.
So IMO it depends on what you want.
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Thanks John, I actually was looking at Cirrus first then was talked out of it and into RV10 because it gave the same look at feel without the cost associated. How was the maintenance and CAPS system? Annuals much more? I would be excited to have a SR20.
 
How's them Cirri do on grass strips?
 
gkdave said:
Thanks John, I actually was looking at Cirrus first then was talked out of it and into RV10 because it gave the same look at feel without the cost associated. How was the maintenance and CAPS system? Annuals much more? I would be excited to have a SR20.
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Annual maintenance on the CAPS is minimal, more or less you just have a look at it. The cost comes in 10 year intervals with the mandatory repack. Get a G2 or newer that doesn't require any paint work to remove the chute and the cost goes WAY down.

Signed IA with cirrus experience.
 
I've owned a lot of airplanes, the majority of which were co-ownership because the limitations on use (almost none) were far outweighed by the reductions in cost (capital, fixed and MX costs dropped by 50-75%).

Even so, the issues I/we faced when making "move-up" decisions were similar to those you and every other owner will encounter. Some of the lessons were:

1. Don't pour perfume on a pig. Significant make-overs are more economical to achieve by switching to an airplane that has already been re-spiffed than doing it yourself. In addition to the money, the down-time required for some of the mods can seemingly take forever, and the jury is out on the final result until end of the combined projects. Even though a trade or sell-buy includes an element of cost, the percentage of money spent to realizable value achieved (FMV) works much more favorably when somebody else has already paid the retail cost of the upgrades.

2. Airplanes like yours are basically priced as commodities, and with so many in the same general condition, it's difficult for a buyer to spend a big chunk of "extra money" to buy a plane that performs like all the others, none of which offer much "wow" factor insofar as performance and speed are concerned.

3. Moving up one notch doesn't help much. Use the tools available to determine actual trip times for the various prospects. You'll find, for example, that moving from a 4-seat FG to the same plane with RG provides very little return and the same is true for moving up to a higher-horsepower variant in the same family. You must jump 2-3 notches to obtain meaningful results, and speed is expensive.

4. With your budget flexibility, you can consider many different airplanes that will vastly improve your enjoyment of family travel. A 160-kt Bo, 210, Mooney, etc. will feel like an SST for the first few trips, then you will become accustomed to the speed but (in my case anyway) will always appreciate it and never want to go back. If your foreseeable max load is three, almost any of the planes would be viable prospects.

5. Base all your calculations on miles rather than hours, do all your budgets based on total yearly costs. Don't forget to include estimated residual value to determine total unit costs (year, miles, seat miles, etc) if you're interested in knowing those numbers in advance.
 
wabower said:
I've owned a lot of airplanes, the majority of which were co-ownership because the limitations on use (almost none) were far outweighed by the reductions in cost (capital, fixed and MX costs dropped by 50-75%).



1. Don't pour perfume on a pig. Significant make-overs are more economical to achieve by switching to an airplane that has already been re-spiffed than doing it yourself. In addition to the money, the down-time required for some of the mods can seemingly take forever, and the jury is out on the final result until end of the combined projects. Even though a trade or sell-buy includes an element of cost, the percentage of money spent to realizable value achieved (FMV) works much more favorably when somebody else has already paid the retail cost of the upgrades.

2. Airplanes like yours are basically priced as commodities, and with so many in the same general condition, it's difficult for a buyer to spend a big chunk of "extra money" to buy a plane that performs like all the others, none of which offer much "wow" factor insofar as performance and speed are concerned.
.
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Too funny, but very true.. Thanks Wayne for the reply and very informative. I spent 2.4hrs last night flying my Warrior and yes she flew well and did the job, but I kept looking at the Airspeed noting 100kts. Got a tailwind and was doing 118gs and was like I could be going that fast true.

With everyone's comments and my own personal desires, I am really strongly deciding on moving up to a newer plane. Probably won't be the Vans RV-10 I wanted, but will be a newer 180-200hp model. Now just to figure out which one.
 
I like cirrus no experience but like a nicer interior as well.. And speed is nice.
 
wabower said:
3. Moving up one notch doesn't help much. Use the tools available to determine actual trip times for the various prospects. You'll find, for example, that moving from a 4-seat FG to the same plane with RG provides very little return and the same is true for moving up to a higher-horsepower variant in the same family. You must jump 2-3 notches to obtain meaningful results, and speed is expensive.
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Can you give an example of a 2-3 notch jump from the Warrior? I went from a Citabria to a vintage Bonanza, and I really appreciated the speed and utility for my entire ownership.
 
docmirror said:
Can you give an example of a 2-3 notch jump from the Warrior? I went from a Citabria to a vintage Bonanza, and I really appreciated the speed and utility for my entire ownership.
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Bonanza, 210, mooney, basically any of the HP singles. One step up would be arrow or Dakota, a Cherokee six two, etc...
 
When evaluating block times, 172 to 182 is one notch on my chart. 182 to 182-RG would be one notch. 182-RG to 210 would be one notch. I don't think of it as an exact science and some of the notches provide different benefits.

docmirror said:
Can you give an example of a 2-3 notch jump from the Warrior? I went from a Citabria to a vintage Bonanza, and I really appreciated the speed and utility for my entire ownership.
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NineThreeKilo said:
Damn, that's the touchscreen 430W that costs near 3 times as much??

I'd say if you're the type that buys a new GTN650, you probably want to look at a new Cirrus or TBM
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Huh? They're within a few grand of each other "all in" around here.
 
Dave,
From what I've noticed RV10's are costing a premium. I really like the turbo from Brazil, very nice RV10. However, speaking of my Cirrus. Annuals, because I deferred all minimal maintenance until then, cost between $2-3.5K. Base annual was around $1Kish. But, then I would always add things to it (software updates, 406 ELT, etc). But since you already have an airplane I will not discuss that point. Long story short. In airplane talk, it was pretty cheap in my opinion.

As for Grass, The Cirrus handled it with no problem at all, even with wheel pants on.
 
gkdave said:
Too funny, but very true.. Thanks Wayne for the reply and very informative. I spent 2.4hrs last night flying my Warrior and yes she flew well and did the job, but I kept looking at the Airspeed noting 100kts. Got a tailwind and was doing 118gs and was like I could be going that fast true.
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Start plugging in 155kts GS into skyvector and plotting trips. Then factor in a typical 25 knot headwind and see what things look like vs your warrior's numbers
 
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