Diana's excellent adventure???

Bill Jennings said:
Did you get to go???
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Hey Bill, we sure did.

Had a great flight down, 6.5 hours on the tach. Stopped at Walnut Ridge, AR and a good meal at the airport restaurant. Then on to Corinth MS for a second fuel stop. We were also checking out prospective overnight spots where we could hangar the Citabria coming home if the weather got bad (forecast was iffy for the return trip).

Found Greg’s grass strip in the hills of Alabama, taxied to his hangar and he snuggled us between his Cub and Decathlon (very tight fit). His grass runway is very rough (the new section), much rougher than ours at the farm. He is still working on it so it should be smoother in the future.

I must say, his home/B&B is beautiful and Greg is an excellent cook! His wife is lovely. And he has a nice chocolate lab who, unfortunately, is not afraid of a prop. We had to watch him closely.

We had ground school the next morning and I flew three sessions. Learned a whole new way to do aileron rolls -- what Greg calls the “Zero G Aileron Roll.” I don’t think my engine has ever faltered as many times as it did doing them. Maybe my engine doesn’t appreciate zero g rolls as much as Greg.

Of course, we did many loops and we did several spins to the left and right, all 3 or more turns prior to recovery. Did some unusual attitude recovery as well. We did a lot of what he called “Crazy Eights” as prep for the Hammerheads. Actually they seemed like a version of the wingover. The Hammerheads were interesting. I’ve done a few in the past and I was reminded once again why I won’t be doing them in the Citabria.

Tom had one lesson with Greg in our Citabria. They did rolls, loops and spins. I really enjoyed watching them from the grass runway. I’d never seen what my Citabria looks like doing aerobatics and was impressed with how graceful it looked from the ground. It doesn’t look that graceful when I am in the pilot’s seat.

Late one afternoon Greg took Tom for a low and slow ride in his Cub around the area (beautiful gently rolling hills). He did a version of his Cub air show routine with Tom and it was fun to watch.

Overall I got some new input on how to do aerobatics with a fixed pitch prop with emphasis on power management, especially to prevent shock cooling. Greg highly recommends spades, as does most everyone else I talk to. He could tell I wasn’t able to get full aileron deflection for my rolls.

Greg changed his plans a bit, and the weather forecast started looking iffy for traveling, so we left a few hours early before I completed all my lessons. On the first leg home in the late afternoon we made it to Corinth, MS where we hangared the Citabria for the night. It was a good thing because storms moved through. We watched the trees bow and many plastic chairs blow around the pool from our hotel window. The folks at the FBO in Corinth were wonderful and gave us a VERY nice new courtesy van to use overnight.

After the storms passed the next morning, we flew to Walnut Ridge AR. The winds started gusting to 39 knots and the air filled with dust reducing the visibility significantly, so we spent the night at Pocahontas, AR. The FBO folks at Walnut Ridge were great folks as well and gave us the courtesy car to keep overnight. This old “police” car obviously had a lot of interesting history if it could only talk.

The next morning we had a 30 plus knot headwind (and 0 to 2 G bumps on the last 2 ½ hour leg). We landed at the farm about ten am with a strong, gusty (25 to 30 knot) wind nearly down the runway.

As usual it was interesting flying the Citabria cross-country. We love meeting people at different airports and know we may or may not land where we plan and end up spending time in all kinds of interesting places. For us the destination sometimes becomes secondary in importance and the journey itself becomes even more interesting.
 
Diana said:
Found Greg’s grass strip in the hills of Alabama, taxied to his hangar and he snuggled us between his Cub and Decathlon (very tight fit). His grass runway is very rough (the new section), much rougher than ours at the farm. He is still working on it so it should be smoother in the future.
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Based on Scott and Skip's description of your runway and your compusion for keeping it smooth, I suspect that you will always find other grass strips less smooth.:)

We had ground school the next morning and I flew three sessions. Learned a whole new way to do aileron rolls -- what Greg calls the “Zero G Aileron Roll.”
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Remember a while back when we were discussing what an "aileron roll" is I suggested you try getting as close to zero G as possible just before starting the roll? Done this way, there is no need for any rudder because a wing producing no lift cannot create adverse yaw. Is this what Greg had you doing?

We did a lot of what he called “Crazy Eights” as prep for the Hammerheads. Actually they seemed like a version of the wingover.
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That's what I learned in the Starduster very early on and thought I was doing a lazy 8. Slowing it down by an order of magnitude for the commercial checkride was a challenge.

Tom had one lesson with Greg in our Citabria. They did rolls, loops and spins. I really enjoyed watching them from the grass runway. I’d never seen what my Citabria looks like doing aerobatics and was impressed with how graceful it looked from the ground. It doesn’t look that graceful when I am in the pilot’s seat.

It probably does from the ground.;)

Overall I got some new input on how to do aerobatics with a fixed pitch prop with emphasis on power management, especially to prevent shock cooling.
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Personally I don' thing shock cooling is that big of a deal for the engine in your Citabria. The inertial stresses from acro are far more of an issue IMO and there's not much you can do about them.

Greg highly recommends spades, as does most everyone else I talk to. He could tell I wasn’t able to get full aileron deflection for my rolls.
You can probably try Chip's new Citabria (with spades) to feel the difference. I suspect that you'll find that you "need" them after that.
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Diana said:
His grass runway is very rough (the new section), much rougher than ours at the farm.
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Foreshadowing?

Diana said:
As usual it was interesting flying the Citabria cross-country. We love meeting people at different airports and know we may or may not land where we plan and end up spending time in all kinds of interesting places. For us the destination sometimes becomes secondary in importance and the journey itself becomes even more interesting.
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I am so jealous that you can make these kinds of trips. I would love to, but alas, my wife sees an airplane only as a utilitarian instrument and not as a magic carpet.
 
Hey Bill, we sure did.
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I'm glad you got that in. I was on a motorcycle trip in the north Georga Mts, and that front that went thru was nasty...very high gusty winds.


Learned a whole new way to do aileron rolls -- what Greg calls the “Zero G Aileron Roll.”
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I'll have to ask my instructor about those. I'm still not totally used to the feeling of 0G maneuvers.

The Hammerheads were interesting. I’ve done a few in the past and I was reminded once again why I won’t be doing them in the Citabria.
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I don't know exactly what we did on my lessons, once he called them hammerhead turns, but later called it wing overs. We pulled up like a loop, at 90 degrees up, stopped the pull, waited a second or so, then smoothly added full rudder and full opposite aileron. The plane pivoted around the inner wing tip and ended up pointing straight down.


Overall I got some new input on how to do aerobatics with a fixed pitch prop with emphasis on power management, especially to prevent shock cooling.
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By power management to prevent shock cooling, did you keep the power up on most maneuvers?

The winds started gusting to 39 knots...

The next morning we had a 30 plus knot headwind (and 0 to 2 G bumps on the last 2 ½ hour leg). We landed at the farm about ten am with a strong, gusty (25 to 30 knot) wind nearly down the runway.
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That sounds about right!

For us the destination sometimes becomes secondary in importance and the journey itself becomes even more interesting.
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Sounds like a great time. I can't wait for the Gastons flyin, that will be my first nice long trip.
 
What part of Alabama?

I have a brother in Russelleville I"ve flown down to see. That's just south of Muscle Shoals.

Might need to make a visit this summer.
 
lancefisher said:
Remember a while back when we were discussing what an "aileron roll" is I suggested you try getting as close to zero G as possible just before starting the roll? Done this way, there is no need for any rudder because a wing producing no lift cannot create adverse yaw. Is this what Greg had you doing?
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Yes, I kinda remember our discussion about that. Seems like everyone has been trying to explain aileron rolls to me forever without success. They just don't seem to work in the Citabria like they do in other airplanes. :wine: (Now where is that cheese?)

It seems like he said that the 0 G attitude would help keep my nose from dropping while inverted, as well. I had the stick all the way forward (well, as far as these short little arms could shove) while inverted and he said to push it even farther forward. Seems like it was no longer an aileron roll, to me? I used a bit of left rudder to enter and to finish the roll.

He had me try to hold onto the frame with my left arm to help give me oomph to use my right arm to try to use full aileron.

lancefisher said:
Personally I don' thing shock cooling is that big of a deal for the engine in your Citabria. The inertial stresses from acro are far more of an issue IMO and there's not much you can do about them.
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Well, nobody else has ever stressed that before, so we wondered. He said it was fine to redline it forever, just not to go over redline. Seems like a fine line between "on" and "over" redline, especially while you are zipping and zooming around and trying to look outside and at everything else. I don't really want to go to redline if can help it.

lancefisher said:
You can probably try Chip's new Citabria (with spades) to feel the difference. I suspect that you'll find that you "need" them after that.
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Wonder if he will let me fly it? Maybe I should bake him another cake? :)
 
Ken Ibold said:
I am so jealous that you can make these kinds of trips. I would love to, but alas, my wife sees an airplane only as a utilitarian instrument and not as a magic carpet.
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Hopefully when she flies with you to Gaston's it will be different this time? :yes:

It helps when you don't have the pressure of "time" and getting somewhere in a hurry. Wouldn't it be great if you could fly around the country writing about your adventures? Maybe after the kids are in college. :)
 
Bill Jennings said:
By power management to prevent shock cooling, did you keep the power up on most maneuvers?
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Pretty much. More than I had been originally taught.

Bill Jennings said:
Sounds like a great time. I can't wait for the Gastons flyin, that will be my first nice long trip.
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You'll have a great trip! It's always interesting and mostly fun, flying across the country. :)
 
Flyboy said:
What part of Alabama?
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Ron, it's in north central Alabama. Near a little town called Ashville. Northeast of Birmingham and between Birmingham and Gadsden. AL60 is the airstrip.
 
Diana, sounds like great fun. It seems like you are enjoying aerobatics immensely. Congratulations and have fun!

Dustin
 
Diana said:
Pretty much. More than I had been originally taught.
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OK, that jives with what my guy has been teaching. We pretty much set about 2500rpm in level flight, and then do most maneuvers without ever touching the power setting again. The only ones that we've changed power are the snap (power back and pitch up to 85mph, then full throttle simultanous with snap inputs), and the spin (no power). All the others were mostly set and forget, and use attitude to control speed. Yes, during the dive for the loop, the engine gets right to (but not over) redline.
 
Bill Jennings said:
OK, that jives with what my guy has been teaching. We pretty much set about 2500rpm in level flight, and then do most maneuvers without ever touching the power setting again. The only ones that we've changed power are the snap (power back and pitch up to 85mph, then full throttle simultanous with snap inputs), and the spin (no power). All the others were mostly set and forget, and use attitude to control speed. Yes, during the dive for the loop, the engine gets right to (but not over) redline.
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Power is much easier to manage with a constant speed prop, with a fixed pitch prop you can easily exceed redline RPM long before reaching Vne in a dive in most planes and this is apt to occur when your attention is riveted on the ground rushing at you.
 
lancefisher said:
Power is much easier to manage with a constant speed prop, with a fixed pitch prop you can easily exceed redline RPM long before reaching Vne in a dive in most planes and this is apt to occur when your attention is riveted on the ground rushing at you.
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If my plans for a personal airplane lean towards aerobatic, I'm starting to wonder if I should look at the Super-D over the Citabria. Constant speed prop, added aerobatic capability, and faster cruise for trips. I wonder.
 
Bill Jennings said:
If my plans for a personal airplane lean towards aerobatic, I'm starting to wonder if I should look at the Super-D over the Citabria. Constant speed prop, added aerobatic capability, and faster cruise for trips. I wonder.
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Plus the symmetrical wing and higher G limits IIRC. I think you are also more likely to find one with inverted fuel/oil which is important for anything beyond the basics. Then again, what you really "need" would be something like an Extra 300, right?
 
lancefisher said:
Plus the symmetrical wing and higher G limits IIRC. I think you are also more likely to find one with inverted fuel/oil which is important for anything beyond the basics. Then again, what you really "need" would be something like an Extra 300, right?
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I'm laughing, because this is exactly where I find myself. Fortunately (?), I can't afford anything more super than a Super D, and maybe not even that, so my options are necessarily limited. Bill, be forewarned, the Super D does not do everything. It doesn't have enough power to do vertical rolls or anything that needs a long vertical line. But, hey, for the basic stuff it's fantastic.

I should check on this, but I was told It's got a semi-symmetrical wing. The Extra has a fully symmetrical wing.
 
lancefisher said:
Then again, what you really "need" would be something like an Extra 300, right?
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Hahahaha!

Unless I change careers, rob a bank, hit the lotto, or have some unknown rich relative leave me a pile, something like an older 2-hole Pitts would be the absolute top of the range.

*sigh*

Is a Pitts any good at all for travel, or is it a one trick pony?
 
Toby said:
Bill, be forewarned, the Super D does not do everything. It doesn't have enough power to do vertical rolls or anything that needs a long vertical line. But, hey, for the basic stuff it's fantastic.
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And, it is all I could reasonably afford. Hey, if I find the Citabria to be fantastic, I'd bet that I would really like the Super-D.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Is a Pitts any good at all for travel, or is it a one trick pony?
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People fly them all over the place, but I didn't enjoy flying mine cross country very much. I found it to be an aerobatic airplane that will go cross country if required, not a cross country airplane that also does acro.
 
Bill Jennings said:
I'm starting to wonder if I should look at the Super-D over the Citabria. Constant speed prop, added aerobatic capability, and faster cruise for trips.
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The SuperD is a far more capable aerobatic machine than is a Citabria, but don't count on the cruise speed to be more than nominally better. In exchange, you have a 1400 TBO engine instead of 2000 and a purchase price that's about 1.5 times the Citabria. And unless you get a new one you're also rather more payload limited on the SuperD than on a Citabria.
 
Ken Ibold said:
In exchange, you have a 1400 TBO engine instead of 2000 and a purchase price that's about 1.5 times the Citabria. And unless you get a new one you're also rather more payload limited on the SuperD than on a Citabria.
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1400 TBO, lovely!

Between you and Chip, I'm starting to realize the Citabria is really the best choice for an "affordable" multi-purpose light acro plane.

One of the RV's looks like it would be a good all-around plane, but I have zero interest in rolling my own.

Hey, at least I have another 2 years to think!
 
Bill Jennings said:
Between you and Chip, I'm starting to realize the Citabria is really the best choice for an "affordable" multi-purpose light acro plane.

One of the RV's looks like it would be a good all-around plane, but I have zero interest in rolling my own.
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I thought so when I bought mine. I originally was looking at SuperDs, but an American Champion dealer talked me out of it and into a cheaper bird. Imagine that! Citabrias are about the least expensive new planes available, coming in a 2/3rds the price and 3 times the fun of a 172. My only complaint after four years of ownership is that the McCreary tailwheel tires are crap, but I can't find anything better.

I have started to think about an RV-7 or RV-8 (can't decide on tandem or not). There are aspects about building that would be neat, but I'm not sure I have the stick-to-itiveness to make it work. Excellent airplanes, tho. :)
 
Dianna sounds like an awesome experience. Just curious why you do not like to perform hammerheads in a citabria?
 
gibbons said:
People fly them all over the place, but I didn't enjoy flying mine cross country very much. I found it to be an aerobatic airplane that will go cross country if required, not a cross country airplane that also does acro.
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I think you'd find that sitting in a Pitts for more than an hour or two will leave you too crippled to walk to the FOB's lounge. Then again IIRC the endurance of the fuel supply won't go much longer anyway. So, you can travel in a Pitts, but you might not like it much. Now if you had a buddy to fly formation with along the way you might be so busy you'd forget about the discomfort.
 
lancefisher said:
I think you'd find that sitting in a Pitts for more than an hour or two will leave you too crippled to walk to the FOB's lounge. Then again IIRC the endurance of the fuel supply won't go much longer anyway. So, you can travel in a Pitts, but you might not like it much. Now if you had a buddy to fly formation with along the way you might be so busy you'd forget about the discomfort.
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Also -- what about heat? I don't know about the Pitts, but some of those airplanes don't have heat, and they get really uncomfortable in the winter. The Sukhoi was freezing, the Extra was freezing. I did a xc in an Extra in January wearing many layers.
 
gonvrtd said:
Dianna sounds like an awesome experience. Just curious why you do not like to perform hammerheads in a citabria?
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There are several reasons, some of them having to do with past instruction I've received. The main reason..........I don't want to do tailslides in my Citabria.
 
Toby said:
Also -- what about heat? I don't know about the Pitts, but some of those airplanes don't have heat, and they get really uncomfortable in the winter. The Sukhoi was freezing, the Extra was freezing. I did a xc in an Extra in January wearing many layers.
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Cabin comfort in almost any truly acrobatic airplane just isn't a big design concern so you shouldn't expect things like heaters that work. For any open cockpit airplanes there's simply no way to stay warm when the air is cold. The Starduster Too biplane we used to have had a heat muff from some Piper product that would barely warm your toes. We pulled that and installed two bigger muffs (one on each exhaust) in tandem to get more heat. The result was that with the heat fully on, you could literally melt the soles of your tennis shoes, but your hands and upper body still froze. There's just too much air circulating from the outside for anything but a radiant heater to work effectively.
 
Toby said:
Also -- what about heat? the Extra was freezing. I did a xc in an Extra in January wearing many layers.
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Oh, let's see. The last time I rode in the front seat of an Extra in cold weather my left lower leg was on fire and felt like it was going to burst into flames while my right lower leg was so cold it was numb. It was an interesting discussion flying along. "Hey, would you please turn the heat up?" "Hey, would you please turn it down?" "I don't care if you ARE cold back there!". Hmmmm, maybe that's why I haven't been offered a ride in the Extra lately? ;)
 
Diana said:
Oh, let's see. The last time I rode in the front seat of an Extra in cold weather my left lower leg was on fire and felt like it was going to burst into flames while my right lower leg was so cold it was numb. It was an interesting discussion flying along. "Hey, would you please turn the heat up?" "Hey, would you please turn it down?" "I don't care if you ARE cold back there!". Hmmmm, maybe that's why I haven't been offered a ride in the Extra lately? ;)
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I'm surprised no one sells heated flight gear (flight suit, gloves socks etc). Something to plug into the plane's electical system with the ability to adjust the temperature of various parts would be wonderful. Of course, a chilled version for summer would be nice too!
 
lancefisher said:
I'm surprised no one sells heated flight gear (flight suit, gloves socks etc). Something to plug into the plane's electical system with the ability to adjust the temperature of various parts would be wonderful. Of course, a chilled version for summer would be nice too!
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No chilled version, but motorcyclists have been using heated gear for years. I have a full set of Gerbings, and have ridden toasty as can be down to 14F. I use the HeatTroller, which is a true on/off temperature control (basically electronically adjusted duty cycle) instead of the older, less efficient resistor controllers.

http://www.gerbing.com/
 
Sounds fantastic, Diana! Glad you enjoyed it.
 
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