departure question

[stapler101]

I took the advice of many here and got "Say again please". Thanks for the advice as i am really enjoying it. BTW, I guess I got the original 1995 version not realizing that there are more recent versions. Should I get a more current version?
My question today is this> I sometimes land at Jones Riverside in Jenks (Tulsa, Ok). I am sure many other airports are similar.
Near the departure area of the runway there is a turn-out area on the right where the runup is completed.
My question is, when I get taxi permission from the FBO to runway X, am I always to turn into the runup area to complete the runup (
assuming there are no other planes ahead of me) or can I do the runup just shy of the runway hold markings?
My other question is, after runup is it necessary to advise ground that runup is complete if I am in the runup area so they can tell me to taxi on up to the runway hold mark.
When do I contact the tower? Only after I am at the runway hold mark or while I am still in the runup area?
I hope my question makes sense.
thanks

 

[gismo]

I took the advice of many here and got "Say again please". Thanks for the advice as i am really enjoying it. BTW, I guess I got the original 1995 version not realizing that there are more recent versions. Should I get a more current version?
My question today is this> I sometimes land at Jones Riverside in Jenks (Tulsa, Ok). I am sure many other airports are similar.
Near the departure area of the runway there is a turn-out area on the right where the runup is completed.
My question is, when I get taxi permission from the FBO to runway X, am I always to turn into the runup area to complete the runup (assuming there are no other planes ahead of me) or can I do the runup just shy of the runway hold markings?

That's more about who's behind you than who's ahead and it's not a regulatory issue at all, just a matter of courtesy. Basically if there is a good runnup area near the departure end of the runway you should always pull in there to prepare for takeoff unless you know that you will be able to complete your runnup long before any other airplanes show up behind. Some pilots will complete their pre-takeoff checks before taxiing to the runway and some may not perform a runnup at all so they could be ready to depart as soon as they get to the hold short line and won't likely be happy to find someone blocking the way that's not ready to depart. And if you find yourself blocking another airplane that's ready when you're not the decent thing to do is at least offer to move out of the way if at all possible. Finally you should always be aware of what's behind you when doing a mag and/or prop check. It's very rude to blast a nearby plane taxiing behind you with the wind and debris kicked up at 1700 RPM. It's also wise to avoid stopping close behind another airplane that's likely to be doing that to you.

Also I don't get the part about "permission from the FBO" to taxi. Did you mean ground control at a towered airport?

My other question is, after runup is it necessary to advise ground that runup is complete if I am in the runup area so they can tell me to taxi on up to the runway hold mark.
When do I contact the tower? Only after I am at the runway hold mark or while I am still in the runup area?
I hope my question makes sense.
thanks

If the runnup area is adjacent to the departure end of the runway, you can usually just get in line with any other planes that are ready to depart but if there is a bit of taxiing involved to get from the runnup area to the departure end, you should both ask initially for taxi clearance to the runnup area (rather than the runway) and subsequent to your runnup ask for a taxi to the runway.

Once you reach the runway and are ready for takeoff you would normally just contact the tower for takeoff clearance unless the ground controller had given different instructions. A very few airports have different procedures such as not calling tower until you are #1 for takeoff but in those cases there should be an announcement to that effect on the ATIS and/or part of your initial taxi clearance. BTW it is important that you monitor either ground or tower on the radio at all times when you are in a controlled movement area (e.g. taxiway, holding short, etc.). Typically you'd monitor ground until you are in the line for takeoff and then listen to tower once you switch to that frequency.

 

[azure]

My question is, when I get taxi permission from the FBO to runway X, am I always to turn into the runup area to complete the runup (assuming there are no other planes ahead of me) or can I do the runup just shy of the runway hold markings?

It depends on a lot of things. If there's no traffic behind me and/or the field isn't busy, and I only need a quick mag check, sometimes I don't use the runup area and just do it at the hold short line. But if you haven't done any of the checks you normally do during runup, then I would turn off. When in doubt, I use the runup area. That's what it's there for, and if you block someone who is ready to go, it's strongly frowned upon.

My other question is, after runup is it necessary to advise ground that runup is complete if I am in the runup area so they can tell me to taxi on up to the runway hold mark.
When do I contact the tower? Only after I am at the runway hold mark or while I am still in the runup area?

I was taught to contact Tower when I'm ready to go, before moving from wherever I did my runup (edit: assuming it's a runup area or reasonably close to the runway -- otherwise I agree with Lance, call ground again). If necessary I turn myself around so that I can see the runway before doing so. Some runup areas (I recall seeing this at PTK for certain) even have hold short lines with the solid lines on the runup area side, meaning that once you've crossed into the runup area, you need a clearance to exit. They're typically very close to the runway, so I call Tower and tell them where I am, and that I'm ready to depart.

I hope my question makes sense.

I thought it did. Does my answer make sense?

 

[jesse]

It's also wise to avoid stopping close behind another airplane that's likely to be doing that to you.

Also be damn careful if you're at an airport with jets. You really need to avoid putting yourself behind their engines, especially if you're in a 150/172/something light. If their thrust hits you at the right angle it doesn't take much to pick up your wing.

 

[poadeleted20]

My question is, when I get taxi permission from the FBO to runway X, am I always to turn into the runup area to complete the runup (assuming there are no other planes ahead of me) or can I do the runup just shy of the runway hold markings?

Unless you're sure nobody's behind you, as a matter of courtesy, use the run-up area.

My other question is, after runup is it necessary to advise ground that runup is complete if I am in the runup area so they can tell me to taxi on up to the runway hold mark.

No. Just call tower when you're ready, and you can pull forward to the hold-short line while you're doing that.

When do I contact the tower? Only after I am at the runway hold mark or while I am still in the runup area?

When you're ready, whether that's at the hold-short or the run-up area.

 

[rottydaddy]

FWIW, I usually find some out-of-the-way place to do a run-up... more than once I was sure nobody was coming until I was halfway through my pre-takeoff checklist and noticed someone waiting behind me.

It's worth a little time and trouble to go to that ramp area, jughandle, or turnaround so you can take your time with the runup, etc. and not inconvenience or endanger anyone. Helps avoid you looking like a jerk, too.

And if your habit is to not approach the hold-short until you are really ready to go, you'll never find yourself blocking access to the active or the active itself.... because you have discovered you have to abort but cannot turn around on the taxiway.... because someone's behind you (d'oh).

 

[ScottM]

FWIW at KPWK ground would like you to stay in the run up area until ready for take off. Then they will tell you to taxi to the hold short or that you are cleared for departure. They are trying to keep access to runway as open as possible to get the traffic up in the air. Sometimes they have limited windows that they departure out without conflict with ORD traffic. And we know ORD traffic trumps all other traffic.

 

[stapler101]

thanks for all the replies. It makes great sense now.

BTW- wahtorskeer, what I meant was the FBO as a location that I was taxing from. That was confusing i see now.

 

[Everskyward]

A very few airports have different procedures <snip> but in those cases there should be an announcement to that effect on the ATIS and/or part of your initial taxi clearance.

One of those is KAPA, Denver Centennial.

 

[gismo]

No. Just call tower when you're ready, and you can pull forward to the hold-short line while you're doing that.

I assume you only mean that when the runnup area is in close proximity to the runway. IMO if you have to taxi more than 100 ft or so to get to the runway from the runnup area you should call ground (or tower) first.

 

[gismo]

thanks for all the replies. It makes great sense now.

BTW- wahtorskeer, what I meant was the FBO as a location that I was taxing from. That was confusing i see now.

I see what you meant now too.

 

[gismo]

At my home base (KFCM near Minneapolis) part of the recent airport improvement project included eliminating most of the runnup areas for the north parallel runway that had been in place for years. In addition they moved the hold short lines for one of the runways so close to the adjacent taxiway that it's no longer possible to stop there without blocking the taxiway. Supposedly this was done to comply with some newer airport design criteria but is sure seems stupid. The tower controllers hate it as much as the pilots and I can hardly wait to see how this works when traffic picks up in the spring. At this point if you're departing from the northern E/W runway (favored by most traffic from the four FBOs on the north side of the field) your choices for runnup besides the hold short position on the taxiway by either end of the runway are the two areas on either side of the N/S runway (about halfway down the E/W one), the row between hangars if you're coming from one of them, or one of the FBO ramps (the FBOs are taking down registration numbers of the planes that do that and are planning to send invoices for repairing stone chips to the owners if there's any stone chip damage to the parked aircraft).

 

[AuntPeggy]

At nearly every airport we have visited, including RVS, after getting clearance from Ground to taxi to the runway, you are expected to pull into the runup area if you need to do a runup. Skip it if you do not need to do a runup. After completing the runup, join the line waiting for the runway (if it exists) and tell Tower when you are number 1 for the runway.

Tower and Ground expect you to stop for a runup when you need, and to exit the runup when you are done.

At RVS, I would never do a runup on the taxiway because there are plenty of jets there and they don't need to do a runup and they burn very expensive fuel very quickly. I'd never want to block their way to the runway.

 

[bobmrg]

Thanks for buying the book, which is now in its fourth edition. Lots of things have changed since 1995, so I hope you can see your way clear to get the most recent edition.

You can stay ahead of the game by going to www.faa.gov and searching for the Aeronautical Information Manual. Once you are there, go to the Pilot/Controller Glossary...if there are changes in phraseology or new definitions, that's where you will find them (heck, that's where I find them!).

I don't like the term "request permission." You are the pilot in command...tell the controller what you want to do and wait for something like "proceed as requested" or "Stand by...remain this frequency." There are darn few cases where pilots need to ask permission to do something.

Brief digression: There are movement areas and there are non-movement areas. They are separated by a double yellow line (AIM figure 2-3-21) just like a two-lane highway. If the line is solid on your side, you can't cross it, just like a no-passing zone on the highway; if the line is dashed on your side you can dash across. Bottom line is that if you are in a non-movement area you don't need to talk to ground about anything, because their authority is limited to movement areas.

Bob Gardner

 

[Ghery]

Remember, you were cleared to taxi from where ever it was that you started to Rwy X. You don't need to ask for clearance to taxi from the run up area to the hold short line, you've already been cleared to that point. I taxi to the run up area (if one is provided), do my run up tasks and then head for the hold short line. If someone passed me, so be it. Get to the line, call the tower and follow instructions.

 

[gismo]

Remember, you were cleared to taxi from where ever it was that you started to Rwy X. You don't need to ask for clearance to taxi from the run up area to the hold short line, you've already been cleared to that point. I taxi to the run up area (if one is provided), do my run up tasks and then head for the hold short line. If someone passed me, so be it. Get to the line, call the tower and follow instructions.

Again, that's correct if and only if the runnup area is adjacent to the departure runway hold short line (as is most commonly the case). If it's obviously separated by any significant distance you should first request a taxi to the runnup area and then when you're done with that, request another taxi to the runway. In such a case, given instructions to taxi to the runway, if you stop along the way to do a runnup and later proceed to the runway things could get a bit messed up.