Departing VFR

[Everskyward]

Yes, if conditions are VFR you can always turn back. But when the only inconvenience of getting the clearance on the ground is having to read back a void time, what's the downside? As I said, if you try to pick up the clearance in the air in VT they will not issue it easily until you are at the MIA for the area, which around my home field is 5400. To me it's a no brainer to call them from the ground if there are any clouds around lower than that.

If the weather is good enough you can tell them you are able to maintain your own terrain separation and they will issue your IFR clearance below the MIA.

 

[Velocity173]

Yes, if conditions are VFR you can always turn back. But when the only inconvenience of getting the clearance on the ground is having to read back a void time, what's the downside? As I said, if you try to pick up the clearance in the air in VT they will not issue it easily until you are at the MIA for the area, which around my home field is 5400. To me it's a no brainer to call them from the ground if there are any clouds around lower than that.

They should still be able to issue your clearance. "N12345 are you able to provide your own terrain and obstruction clearance between your present altitude and five thousand four hundred feet?" You reply yes. "N12345 is cleared to..."

 

[narchee]

You do not get your clearance like that. What you get is an expected routing, and what you get from ATC isn't always the same as what you got in that email/text.

Yes agree it is the expected clearance, but it is almost always the same in my experience. I must have done this 50 times in the last year and only a few times was it different and then only slightly (maybe a different STAR into the destination airport)

 

[azure]

If the weather is good enough you can tell them you are able to maintain your own terrain separation and they will issue your IFR clearance below the MIA.

Yes, sometimes they ask if I can maintain my own terrain and obstruction clearance, and in that case all I need to say is yes, and I have my clearance. If they don't, I volunteer that information, and that is usually the beginning of a few minutes of waiting, at the end of which I'll have my clearance - but typically I've had to level off to avoid entering the clouds before that happens.

So, why not just call for the clearance on the ground?

 

[MarkZ]

Just as it says in Section 4-3-4b. Nothing there says you can only issue a "hold for release" clearance when the pilot is ready for departure, and every TRACON in the eastern third of the US is doing that, and doing it the way I described, so it must be pretty standard.

There is nothing in FAA Order 7110.65 authorizing controllers to issue a clearance on the ground and then a release once airborne. If you're going to do this, make sure ATC knows your plan before you take off so they can coordinate things properly and you don't set off alarms (say, by using your IFR clearance code).

You have described two different techniques that, depending on the traffic and environmental situation, may prove operationally advantageous or detrimental.

Some of our guys issue a HFR as a convenience to the aircraft. Some issue expected route, altitude, and beacon information. In other words, all the stuff a pilot would want to know prior to engine start up. I did it for a while, but got burned and had to let my supervisor know the aircraft was a no show (with the subsequent required modification of proposed times to avoid flight plan timeout from our computer system).

I'm willing to give the HFR technique another shot, if you can explain why doing so is more operationally advantageous than when I issue routing, altitude, frequency, and beacon information sans the official IFR clearance with HFR instructions.

 

[Everskyward]

Yes, sometimes they ask if I can maintain my own terrain and obstruction clearance, and in that case all I need to say is yes, and I have my clearance. If they don't, I volunteer that information, and that is usually the beginning of a few minutes of waiting, at the end of which I'll have my clearance - but typically I've had to level off to avoid entering the clouds before that happens.



So, why not just call for the clearance on the ground?

I don't do it if I don't think I can avoid the clouds.

 

[poadeleted20]

Question - During my training Ive always either filed with fltpln on the ground and gotten the clearance from the tower, KRYY, or gone VFR and maybe gotten into the system in the air with a request to A80.

What do you say if you have a filed plan in and depart vfr to get an actual clearance for a trip?

App - bugchaser 1234 requesting my IFR clearance?

Anything else?

Yes -- where you are (position and altitude), and where you're going (IFR destination).

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm willing to give the HFR technique another shot, if you can explain why doing so is more operationally advantageous than when I issue routing, altitude, frequency, and beacon information sans the official IFR clearance with HFR instructions.

What's the difference between the two for you? And where in 7110.65 does it say you can issue "routing, altitude, frequency, and beacon information" without that HFR instruction? I can sure see problems arising if you do that, and the pilot confuses that with a clearance with release. The HFR instruction (including readback of the HFR) is your guarantee that a less-than-attentive pilot won't take off without you being ready for him/her to enter your airspace and cause a loss of separation on your watch.

 

[Velocity173]

Yes, sometimes they ask if I can maintain my own terrain and obstruction clearance, and in that case all I need to say is yes, and I have my clearance. If they don't, I volunteer that information, and that is usually the beginning of a few minutes of waiting, at the end of which I'll have my clearance - but typically I've had to level off to avoid entering the clouds before that happens.

So, why not just call for the clearance on the ground?

Well technically you don't have to avoid the clouds. That's the whole reason why they ask you if you can maintain your own terrain / obstruction clearance until reaching the MIA. You tell them that you cannot maintain VMC until their MIA, then they ask the question.

I did it plenty of times training students in the Army. Our WX mins were 1000 / 3 for training. We'd go out and do our VMC tasks and then at the end of the period we'd recover with an IAP. Call up approach at around 800 AGL in class G and request a PAR. They'll ask if I can maintain VMC until reaching their MVA. If not, they'll ask if I can maintain my own clearance until reaching their MVA. If the reply is yes, "Crusader 66, cleared to Cairns Army Airfield, climb and maintain two thousand." They won't issue any course instructions below their MVA but they will clear you. It's all in the .65.

 

[MarkZ]

What's the difference between the two for you? And where in 7110.65 does it say you can issue "routing, altitude, frequency, and beacon information" without that HFR instruction?

Are you asking from one professional to another, or are you attempting to engage in a debate? I'm getting the impression of the latter, given the fact you've avoided my question THREE times. I happen to be an instrument rated pilot who flies IFR on every flight out of an uncontrolled field, so I'm trying to learn here as well.

I can sure see problems arising if you do that, and the pilot confuses that with a clearance with release.

If the controller doesn't include the phraseology "cleared to" I'm not sure where the confusion lies. Especially considering the controller will likely say an IFR clearance is unavailable.

Example, "Unable IFR clearance, call me when you are ready for departure. I can give you expected route, frequency, and beacon information. Advise ready to copy."

The HFR instruction (including readback of the HFR) is your guarantee that a less-than-attentive pilot won't take off without you being ready for him/her to enter your airspace and cause a loss of separation on your watch.

To answer your first question. A less than attentive pilot is the EXACT reason I DON'T want to issue any type of HFR instruction. As I've said in a previous post, if the pilot doesn't call me for a release, I have to keep the flight plan active in the system. Eventually, I will have to have my manager get a hold of someone at the airport to find the plane and hopefully, the pilot.

 

[azure]

Well technically you don't have to avoid the clouds. That's the whole reason why they ask you if you can maintain your own terrain / obstruction clearance until reaching the MIA. You tell them that you cannot maintain VMC until their MIA, then they ask the question.

You don't have to avoid the clouds IF you've been given your clearance. The reason I have to level off is that I have NOT been given my clearance. I'm waiting around for the controller to either work me into his plans, or get permission to do what I'm asking him to do. I'm really not sure which it is, but the number of times I've had to volunteer that I can maintain my own terrain and obstruction clearance makes me think that it's not standard procedure for them to give clearances on that basis. It's hard for me to believe it's hard to work me in because of other traffic, since the sector is fairly remote, but it could be.

 

[Velocity173]

You don't have to avoid the clouds IF you've been given your clearance. The reason I have to level off is that I have NOT been given my clearance. I'm waiting around for the controller to either work me into his plans, or get permission to do what I'm asking him to do. I'm really not sure which it is, but the number of times I've had to volunteer that I can maintain my own terrain and obstruction clearance makes me think that it's not standard procedure for them to give clearances on that basis. It's hard for me to believe it's hard to work me in because of other traffic, since the sector is fairly remote, but it could be.

Ok, just saying you mentioned the clouds being below the MIA. That shouldn't be a factor if you can maintain terrain clearance while IMC. The controller can legally give that clearance.

 

[MarkZ]

It's hard for me to believe it's hard to work me in because of other traffic, since the sector is fairly remote, but it could be.

A buddy of mine transferred to ZMP (Minneapolis ARTCC) from ZAU (Chicago ARTCC) recently. He told me that at ZAU he was busy because of sector volume. He worked eastbound departures from Chicago, one of the highest volume sectors in the nation. When he went to ZMP, he said he feels just as busy, but not from traffic volume. He may be talking to four airplanes in a 100 mile area, but he has to conduct coordination with other controllers or facilities for each aircraft. Or, as he told me, "bull**** work."

My point is, you may not believe the sector is busy, but the controller may have procedures and tasks to follow before he or she can issue the IFR clearance. If you can maintain a VFR climb, or maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance, you are helping the controller find a way to quickly work you into the system.

 

[poadeleted20]

Are you asking from one professional to another, or are you attempting to engage in a debate? I'm getting the impression of the latter, given the fact you've avoided my question THREE times. I happen to be an instrument rated pilot who flies IFR on every flight out of an uncontrolled field, so I'm trying to learn here as well.


If the controller doesn't include the phraseology "cleared to" I'm not sure where the confusion lies. Especially considering the controller will likely say an IFR clearance is unavailable.

Example, "Unable IFR clearance, call me when you are ready for departure. I can give you expected route, frequency, and beacon information. Advise ready to copy."



To answer your first question. A less than attentive pilot is the EXACT reason I DON'T want to issue any type of HFR instruction. As I've said in a previous post, if the pilot doesn't call me for a release, I have to keep the flight plan active in the system. Eventually, I will have to have my manager get a hold of someone at the airport to find the plane and hopefully, the pilot.

I think you're missing my points. Again, the HFR process is being routinely used all over as I have described, and it appears to me to be compliant with the referenced section of 7110.65, so I'm having trouble seeing any objection based on the rules unless many, many controllers at many TRACONS are routinely violating the book on this procedural issue, and that seems very unlikely. The requirement to get the pilot to read back "hold for release" (which more times than I can count I've heard repeated until the pilot says it when the pilot omits it from the reqd ack) makes as sure as possible that the pilot knows not to launch yet -- more so, I think, than just omitting the words "cleared to" (think about EA401 and the light that went out).

However, if you feel more comfortable issuing an expected route/etc rather than a HFR clearance, mighty fine. I would, however, suggest that if you choose this method, you obtain positive confirmation that the pilot understands this is not a clearance and s/he must obtain a real clearance (and release if still on the ground) before entering IMC -- the same way other controllers accomplish this in the HFR process by obtaining a readback of the words "hold for release".

 

[azure]

A buddy of mine transferred to ZMP (Minneapolis ARTCC) from ZAU (Chicago ARTCC) recently. He told me that at ZAU he was busy because of sector volume. He worked eastbound departures from Chicago, one of the highest volume sectors in the nation. When he went to ZMP, he said he feels just as busy, but not from traffic volume. He may be talking to four airplanes in a 100 mile area, but he has to conduct coordination with other controllers or facilities for each aircraft. Or, as he told me, "bull**** work."

My point is, you may not believe the sector is busy, but the controller may have procedures and tasks to follow before he or she can issue the IFR clearance. If you can maintain a VFR climb, or maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance, you are helping the controller find a way to quickly work you into the system.

Thanks for the info, that does make sense. Considering everything, I'm inclined to conclude that what I've been doing, getting my clearance on the ground in case of clouds below the MIA, is probably the best way to go to avoid the inconvenience of having to level off while waiting for a clearance. In some cases it might even require looking for a pass or notch when the bases are below the summits, and to me that's too close to scud running.

 

[Everskyward]

I can't speak for the east, but in the intermountain west ATC will give you the expected clearance way in advance and tell you to call when you are ready. That way you can load the expected flight plan in the box. When you make that ready call they may issue you the release right away or say HFR. There may or may not be an amendment to the routing.

 

[azure]

I can't speak for the east, but in the intermountain west ATC will give you the expected clearance way in advance and tell you to call when you are ready. That way you can load the expected flight plan in the box. When you make that ready call they may issue you the release right away or say HFR. There may or may not be an amendment to the routing.

When is "way in advance"? I've never been given an expected clearance by ATC, only via ForeFlight. (But I've never flown in the west either.)

 

[Everskyward]

When is "way in advance"? I've never been given an expected clearance by ATC, only via ForeFlight. (But I've never flown in the west either.)

Depending on if the passengers are late or not, maybe 1/2 hour. I also get the expected clearance on a text from fltplan.com (I don't use Foreflight).