Departing the pattern on Base Leg?

[JasonM]

I feel dumb asking this, but lets assume I am departing an airport that requires me to gain some altitude before I can turn out of the pattern. At an uncontrolled airfield, can I depart the pattern on a climbing base leg? Is there any rules on this?

I am planning my departure for my checkride XC and that seems like the safest option. Just don't want to get failed for doing something out of line.

 

[N801BH]

I feel dumb asking this, but lets assume I am departing an airport that requires me to gain some altitude before I can turn out of the pattern. At an uncontrolled airfield, can I depart the pattern on a climbing base leg? Is there any rules on this?

....

Nope... no rules that I know of....... You are PIC and departing the ATA on a base leg is no different then leaving straight out...

 

[steingar]

Wouldn't do it if I were turning into hostile terrain. Other than that, go for it. Just always be thinking about what you'll do if the mill quits.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I agree with the answers above, with the only addition that I read you'd be climbing out of the pattern, which moves you up away from most of the traffic on base which is usually descending. This reduces traffic conflict unless, like Steingar mentioned, the engine stops.

 

[dtuuri]

I feel dumb asking this, but lets assume I am departing an airport that requires me to gain some altitude before I can turn out of the pattern. At an uncontrolled airfield, can I depart the pattern on a climbing base leg? Is there any rules on this?

I am planning my departure for my checkride XC and that seems like the safest option. Just don't want to get failed for doing something out of line.

I feel dumb asking this question,"If you're departing the pattern, how are possibly on a base leg?" A standard departure would have you miles from there and on a check ride, it's all about standardization. If it's a special airport with special procedures, you follow those procedures.

dtuuri

 

[frfly172]

Must be a special airport if you don't have the altitude on the downwind to depart on an angle.usually have to put the nose down to stay at pattern altitude to enter the base.What are you flying?

 

[N801BH]

I feel dumb asking this question,"If you're departing the pattern, how are possibly on a base leg?" A standard departure would have you miles from there and on a check ride, it's all about standardization. If it's a special airport with special procedures, you follow those procedures.

dtuuri

A base leg departure is nothing more then a 270 degree departure.... Cap't Jack did one while flying over to the Tetons.. And.. we had a great flight too... He took to mountain flying like a duck to water..

 

[Cap'n Jack]

A base leg departure is nothing more then a 270 degree departure.... Cap't Jack did one while flying over to the Tetons.. And.. we had a great flight too... He took to mountain flying like a duck to water..

I had an excellent teacher
Also, the wind was dead calm
I still get compliments for some of those pictures

 

[JHW]

I feel dumb asking this question,"If you're departing the pattern, how are possibly on a base leg?" A standard departure would have you miles from there and on a check ride, it's all about standardization. If it's a special airport with special procedures, you follow those procedures.

dtuuri

My first plane was a 65hp ercoupe. Try that on a summer day with the windows rolled down. It was not possible to depart kansas city downtown to the south under any circumstances.

 

[JasonM]

The airport is in a valley and I need to climb approx 2K feet within a few miles to take the course I prefer. I could fly down the valley and make my trip a lot longer, but if I can just make a trip around the pattern and depart off the base leg while climbing I think I would be at a comfortable altitude for the remaining climb and also stay near the airport a bit longer if needed. I'm flying a 172 and was just at the airport the other day and noticed how hard it would be to get the altitude needed to go in certain directions. Even up the valley I was not gaining much on the ground below. Was a bit of a pucker factor for me there.

 

[denverpilot]

Up valley is almost always a bad idea.

 

[Silvaire]

...but if I can just make a trip around the pattern and depart off the base leg while climbing I think I would be at a comfortable altitude for the remaining climb and also stay near the airport a bit longer if needed....

I think you are misunderstanding what the "pattern" is. It consists of both course and altitude so if you mean to go around in a full circuit while climbing and then depart in the base leg direction you should realize that you will have departed the pattern at the point when you obtain an altitude above the TPA. you can continue to announce your positions but you are no longer in the pattern.

 

[JasonM]

I think you are misunderstanding what the "pattern" is. It consists of both course and altitude so if you mean to go around in a full circuit while climbing and then depart in the base leg direction you should realize that you will have departed the pattern at the point when you obtain an altitude above the TPA. you can continue to announce your positions but you are no longer in the pattern.

I know what a traffic pattern is , and obviously there are guys flying the pattern 200' high and 200' low who would technically be outside of the TPA. I am merely asking if this is an OK procedure to take in this situation as long as I am not interfering with incoming traffic.

 

[JasonM]

Ok, so lets say on downwind I pass by TPA. At what point above TPA should I announce I am departing the TP on downwind to be proper in this situation?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I tend to announce just before I make turns in that situation, as long as I'm not cluttering the frequency. My thinking is that I'm close to the airport, there may people overflying the field or descending into the pattern, since base to downwind is a legal pattern entry as well. As I am climbing, I tend to say altitude, climbing, so I don't worry the student just below me. It doesn't need to by a long call..."Lincoln...Cessna 1234 departing left base runway 36, climbing 3000 feet...Lincoln"

 

[nddons]

I know what a traffic pattern is , and obviously there are guys flying the pattern 200' high and 200' low who would technically be outside of the TPA. I am merely asking if this is an OK procedure to take in this situation as long as I am not interfering with incoming traffic.

A base leg departure is not standard by any measure. Why would you want to do that on a check ride no less? Have you read AIM 4-3-3? The standard departure from the pattern is straight out after takeoff, or 45 degrees right or left when you would otherwise turn crosswind, depending on if it's a right or left hand pattern.

 

[dtuuri]

I am merely asking if this is an OK procedure to take in this situation as long as I am not interfering with incoming traffic.

Well, that's the rub isn't it? You can never be sure you're not interfering with other traffic when you aren't doing what's normally expected. "Announcing" doesn't mean everybody hears you and sees you. Even if they hear you they might see somebody else, thinking they're you. For those who really do see you, they can't keep you in sight constantly, owing to other scanning and cockpit duties, so they make assumptions about your flight path by where you are in relation to the standard pattern.

If you want to fly over the airport, on course, depart the pattern the normal way and plan your climb so you can cruise well over the airport on your desired heading, at cruising altitude if possible, at cruising speed, so you can get an accurate groundspeed at your first checkpoint. Climbing out of the downwind isn't smart because some pilots cross over the field to enter downwind while doing ampersand-shaped descending turns. You wouldn't want to run into one of them. Cruising along on downwind isn't considerate because someone behind you doesn't know you {EDIT: are} aren't leaving the pattern (I don't care if you have a radio, maybe they don't). Same goes for the base--whoever 's behind you is scratching their head going, "WTF? Where's this idiot going?" Of course, things are different in the Tetons.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

My first plane was a 65hp ercoupe. Try that on a summer day with the windows rolled down. It was not possible to depart kansas city downtown to the south under any circumstances.

When you had your Ercoupe, did they have a tower?

dtuuri

 

[JHW]

When you had your Ercoupe, did they have a tower?

dtuuri

Yes, and i only went in there once. Went into mci several times and landed on the taxiway east of 19 (only one 19 then)

 

[Silvaire]

I know what a traffic pattern is , and obviously there are guys flying the pattern 200' high and 200' low who would technically be outside of the TPA. I am merely asking if this is an OK procedure to take in this situation as long as I am not interfering with incoming traffic.

I guess I don't know what you're asking. I'm just saying that you can depart the pattern vertically and after that it really doesn't matter what you do. Obviously there is more traffic in the vicinity of an airport but a "base leg" is not what you are on when doing this. You are no longer in the pattern.

 

[JasonM]

So the consensus is that I can depart where ever I want, but since I am on a checkride, I am being stupid if I don't do a standard departure. My only other options are A. Depart and see how things go and if i can clear the mountain, which I dont think is safe idea or B. depart and fly down a valley to gain altitude then turn around when it gets wide enough to do so, then cross over the airport.

I just thought it would be easier to stay in the "pattern"( non officially since I would be above alt. ) to gain some elevation. Very low traffic airport, but I dont want to fail a checkride for this either.

 

[LDJones]

So the consensus is that I can depart where ever I want, but since I am on a checkride, I am being stupid if I don't do a standard departure. My only other options are A. Depart and see how things go and if i can clear the mountain, which I dont think is safe idea or B. depart and fly down a valley to gain altitude then turn around when it gets wide enough to do so, then cross over the airport.

I just thought it would be easier to stay in the "pattern"( non officially since I would be above alt. ) to gain some elevation. Very low traffic airport, but I dont want to fail a checkride for this either.

If this is in prep for a check ride, ask your CFI what he would recommend. He's familiar with your airport and probably your examiner, so follow his advice.

 

[douglas393]

If this is in prep for a check ride, ask your CFI what he would recommend. He's familiar with your airport and probably your examiner, so follow his advice.

I think this is spot on. It almost seems as you are trying to reinvent the wheel. I think I can say with some certainty you are not the only 172 that departs from your airport. Find out what others do.

To generalize your question, when I depart the pattern at a nontowered field I will announce on the radio where I am in the "pattern" and where I am heading. If I am leaving the pattern, I try to get out of the pattern and away from the airport as soon as it is feasible and safe to do so. Most of the nontowered fields I fly into are not so busy that this is ever an issue.

 

[N801BH]

... It almost seems as you are trying to reinvent the wheel. .......

I respectfully disagree................


Flying is a very dynamic activity and thinking outside the box should be commended...... Granted, following standard procedures is advisable and probably safer in most situations, but there are times when weather or terrain or other traffic will cause a pilot to alter from the norm.... He is PIC and entirely responsible for the safety of any flight and I think the OP shows good flying traits when he asks "what if" questions.. IMHO...

 

[dtuuri]

It's hard to nail down your situation, given the conflicting picture you drew:

...assume I am departing an airport that requires me to gain some altitude before I can turn out of the pattern.

"Before I can turn out of the pattern?" Sounds like a straight-out departure is the only safe course.

At an uncontrolled airfield, can I depart the pattern on a climbing base leg? Is there any rules on this?

That's clear on the other side of the airport from the safe straight-out.

I am planning my departure for my checkride XC and that seems like the safest option. Just don't want to get failed for doing something out of line.

Departing from the base leg is not i/a/w the AIM.

The airport is in a valley and I need to climb approx 2K feet within a few miles to take the course I prefer. I could fly down the valley...

Down-valley is good for obstacle clearance.

...and make my trip a lot longer, but if I can just make a trip around the pattern and depart off the base leg while climbing...

Trash the AIM... on a checkride, no less?

..I think I would be at a comfortable altitude for the remaining climb...

So, you only "think" it'll give you enough altitude? And you weigh that against a safe straight-out departure and climb to cruise altitude before crossing the airport overhead on-course? Not good ADM.

...and also stay near the airport a bit longer if needed.

So, you can continue to wreak havoc with the established pattern if you have to?

I'm flying a 172 and was just at the airport the other day' and noticed how hard it would be to get the altitude needed to go in certain directions. Even up the valley I was not gaining much on the ground below. Was a bit of a pucker factor for me there.

Hmm, now it's "up the valley" not down it. Some airports are best dealt with by departing and arriving from/to the same direction due to this. Is this one of them? How about identifying the airport for us?

So the consensus is that I can depart where ever I want, but since I am on a checkride, I am being stupid if I don't do a standard departure. My only other options are A. Depart and see how things go and if i can clear the mountain, which I dont think is safe idea or B. depart and fly down a valley to gain altitude then turn around when it gets wide enough to do so, then cross over the airport.

Where's this mountain, on the centerline? Up valley? Or the sides of the valley? I'd say you can do whatever you "need to do", not "want to do", but be prepared to prove you did.

dtuuri

 

[PBristolJr]

Whatever you decide to do, discuss it with your DPE in the oral and explain why you think it is SAFEST to do it that way.

 

[bobmrg]

The airport is in a valley and I need to climb approx 2K feet within a few miles to take the course I prefer. I could fly down the valley and make my trip a lot longer, but if I can just make a trip around the pattern and depart off the base leg while climbing I think I would be at a comfortable altitude for the remaining climb and also stay near the airport a bit longer if needed. I'm flying a 172 and was just at the airport the other day and noticed how hard it would be to get the altitude needed to go in certain directions. Even up the valley I was not gaining much on the ground below. Was a bit of a pucker factor for me there.

A lot of angst about clearing terrain/obstacles can be eliminated by a circling climb over the airport.

Bob Gardner

 

[bobmrg]

Ok, so lets say on downwind I pass by TPA. At what point above TPA should I announce I am departing the TP on downwind to be proper in this situation?

Why do you need the announcement at all?

Bob Gardner

 

[Silvaire]

I don't think the issue has to do with the procedure itself but rather the fact that he's on a checkride and is worried he'll get busted. We don't know what airport he's talking about but maybe in the AFD or Flight Guide or on AirNav there might be references to special procedures to address this issue. The best advice given so far is to just talk to the examiner up front and let him know what your concerns are and how you'd like to address them.

 

[Jeanie]

A circling climb to gain altitude before heading on course is normal. Ask your CFI for the local knowledge for that airport. If you are in a mountainous area there are adjustments for those concerns- terrain, wind flow, common traffic flow thru the saddle into the field etc... Even rwy gradient into or away from the ridge compared to wind speed.

 

[douglas393]

I respectfully disagree................


Flying is a very dynamic activity and thinking outside the box should be commended...... Granted, following standard procedures is advisable and probably safer in most situations, but there are times when weather or terrain or other traffic will cause a pilot to alter from the norm.... He is PIC and entirely responsible for the safety of any flight and I think the OP shows good flying traits when he asks "what if" questions.. IMHO...

I guess my reinvent the wheel metaphor may have been the wrong metaphor then. What I was trying to say was he is asking a question about how to depart his field, when I would think a number of other pilots already do this. So instead of trying to figure it out yourself, or even get a number of differing opinions from a bunch of pilots who have a huge amount of great general knowledge about departing fields, why not ask those who are familiar with his field and see what they do and why. I think as a general discussion on what the best way to depart a field in general this is a great thread, but to answer his specific question I think we are more likely to confuse the issue, mainly because we do not know his field and its specific issues.

 

[douglas393]

I don't think the issue has to do with the procedure itself but rather the fact that he's on a checkride and is worried he'll get busted. We don't know what airport he's talking about but maybe in the AFD or Flight Guide or on AirNav there might be references to special procedures to address this issue. The best advice given so far is to just talk to the examiner up front and let him know what your concerns are and how you'd like to address them.

I agree but I would before I do this cold in front of my DPE, on my checkride, check with my CFI, and others with local knowledge exactly how they think about it. I would hate to think that he ends up talking to a DPE about this on his checkride, and then finds out that specific departure protocols are already available.

 

[JasonM]

If this is in prep for a check ride, ask your CFI what he would recommend. He's familiar with your airport and probably your examiner, so follow his advice.

I guess I should have done that , rather than ask on the forum.

I think I can say with some certainty you are not the only 172 that departs from your airport.

Its not my airport. I have to travel to it. Only been there 1 time.

"Before I can turn out of the pattern?" Sounds like a straight-out departure is the only safe course.

Hmm, now it's "up the valley" not down it.

Where's this mountain, on the centerline? Up valley? Or the sides of the valley? I'd say you can do whatever you "need to do", not "want to do", but be prepared to prove you did.

dtuuri

Well, straight out one way puts you into a mountain. Straight out the other way puts you into a mountain. Straight out another way drives you up a valley with rising terrain that is hard to out climb, or at least was for me the other day, and I'd rather not do that again. straight out the last option heads you down a valley. its narrow for a long ways and would require a bit of travel time added to my flight plan.

A lot of angst about clearing terrain/obstacles can be eliminated by a circling climb over the airport.

Bob Gardner

What is the best way to enter a circling climb over an airport? That would work great. I just don't want to do anything that could fail the checkride.

Why do you need the announcement at all?

Bob Gardner

Thought that on my checkride that my radio calls would be required. maybe I am wrong?

I don't think the issue has to do with the procedure itself but rather the fact that he's on a checkride and is worried he'll get busted.

 

[bobmrg]

References are AC 90-66A and 90-42F.

Bob Gardner

 

[bobmrg]

I guess I should have done that , rather than ask on the forum.




Its not my airport. I have to travel to it. Only been there 1 time.






Well, straight out one way puts you into a mountain. Straight out the other way puts you into a mountain. Straight out another way drives you up a valley with rising terrain that is hard to out climb, or at least was for me the other day, and I'd rather not do that again. straight out the last option heads you down a valley. its narrow for a long ways and would require a bit of travel time added to my flight plan.




What is the best way to enter a circling climb over an airport? That would work great. I just don't want to do anything that could fail the checkride.




Thought that on my checkride that my radio calls would be required. maybe I am wrong?

Make the calls recommended by AC90-42F...no more, no less.

Bob

 

[mtuomi]

For checkride XC planning, never plan for "go up there and see if we can make it". So forget about flying to rising terrain. Play it safe, take the longer route if it seems safer, and your DPE will be happy with that.

And the most important advice of them all, relax.

 

[JasonM]

References are AC 90-66A and 90-42F.

Bob Gardner

Thanks Bob

 

[JasonM]

For checkride XC planning, never plan for "go up there and see if we can make it". So forget about flying to rising terrain. Play it safe, take the longer route if it seems safer, and your DPE will be happy with that.

And the most important advice of them all, relax.

That is what I have decided to do. It seems to me that this is something that could be done no problem, but better not risk it on a checkride. I wish I could relax. I've been getting more and more nervous each day I get closer. I'll try though.

 

[mtuomi]

That is what I have decided to do. It seems to me that this is something that could be done no problem, but better not risk it on a checkride. I wish I could relax. I've been getting more and more nervous each day I get closer. I'll try though.

I passed my checkride a month ago. I think my fingers are an inch shorter after biting my nails and then some getting prepared for it. After it was done and I got the A4 in my hand, I was thinking why on earth was I so nervous and worried about it

The oral was actually very easy and educational, read and know the PTS. Dont make things up if you dont know, just know where you can find the information.
The flight part also is just a normal flight, if you mess up, confess and correct it instead of hoping he wouldn't notice(he will). As long as you take detect the error and take corrective action, you wont fail.

Its like my DPE said, "just dont do any stupid sh**", that way you will get a pass, good luck!

 

[dtuuri]

Well, straight out one way puts you into a mountain. Straight out the other way puts you into a mountain. Straight out another way drives you up a valley with rising terrain that is hard to out climb, or at least was for me the other day, and I'd rather not do that again. straight out the last option heads you down a valley. its narrow for a long ways and would require a bit of travel time added to my flight plan.

What's the identifier?

dtuuri