denverpilot
Tied Down
Which ones are you going to tune in on a 1200 mile, all day, multiple fuel stop, cross-country where you don't even know the local team names, let alone where they play?
Denver Presidential TFR Bust
- Thread starter denverpilot
- Start date
Which ones are you going to tune in on a 1200 mile, all day, multiple fuel stop, cross-country where you don't even know the local team names, let alone where they play?
I never fly when TFR's are in effect so I have no idea if they're on ATIS' or not but...
I don't see how distance or multiple stops matter. You check ATIS at each fuel stop anyway, so if TFR's were in the ATIS (they have NOTAMs anyway), people would know.
denverpilot
Tied Down
It's not the end-points that are the problem. It's the airports and stadiums in-between.
That example I mentioned earlier. I don't think KBJC puts anything on their ATIS about Folsom Field in Boulder, CO -- for example. A flight from say, Longmont to KBJC is going to take you right over the top of it. (Or could, anyway.) Some guy did that, last weekend. Low enough anyone with binoculars could have read the N-number, easily.
Now do a 500nm trip down the Eastern Seaboard or anywhere out East. How many stadiums? Where are they? Is anyone playing that day? Are they all charted even?
Another example here would be the MLS soccer stadium. It's not charted. I would never even have a clue when soccer season is, let alone when the Rapids are playing at home. Just don't care. I think it's inside the surface ring of the DEN Bravo, but I've never looked it up for sure. Don't care. If it isn't on the chart, I'm not going to spend any time on it.
Or an outdoor concert venue. We have one a 1/4 mile north of my house just outside of the KAPA Delta airspace. It's not charted. I don't know (other than hearing bits and pieces of the music playing through my open windows in the summertime) when there are events there. It probably qualifies as worthy of a TFR, if it's not getting them already. Never heard KAPA say there was one.
Here's the reality. There's more folks at the giant shopping mall that's directly underneath the downwind entry that KAPA asks for every single day... "Remain West of I-25, report midfield downwind for Runway 35L/R."
Stadium TFRs are a farcical fairy tale fix for a problem the people at the mall face every day and don't even notice it... "Dangerous" little airplanes overhead with students and instructors doing pattern work.
The whole thing is retarded Bravo Sierra. Here comes the boogeyman in a Cessna to kill you all, scare tactics.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
The Stadium TFR justification/BS (take your pick) is not only the size of the crowd. It's its potential as a target because it represents an American way of life - more symbolic damage - more like Disney than an IKEA store.
dukeblue219
Line Up and Wait
Do they even pretend that the stadium TFRs are about protecting stadiums from real terrorists? I thought it was more designed to protect against accidents from circling pilots and perhaps to reduce the number of "little planes" making fans nervous.
I mean... a 3 mile radius that only goes up to 3000' isn't even "security theatre"... there's not even a chance you'd notice a bad guy before he hit you or sprayed his chemicals or whatever.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Around here it isn't too bad, most of the big venues are in controlled airspace anyway. Must be an utter nightmare on the coast.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
Display name:
MAKG
Sorry, I don't buy it.
If that were the case, there would be a permanent TFR over the Lucas Ranch, Emeryville, and the entire city of Burbank (Warner, Disney, Universal, NBC). Instead, Burbank is just Class C (with a little Class D), underlying Class E, and Lucas is Class E/G.
Last edited:
gprellwitz
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2005
- Messages
- 12,762
- Location
- Romeoville, IL
- Display Name
Display name:
Grant Prellwitz
No, stadium TFRs are widely accepted as having been put in place to allow for control over unauthorized advertising (read:banner tow). No one will pay to put up a banner that is at least a half mile from the intended eyeballs!
Old Geek
Pattern Altitude
Neither. It's to keep the engine noise from distracting the commentator.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
If that's the real reason for them, then the NOTAM is a sham, because it classifies them as "national defense airspace."
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978167&postcount=47
Does anyone know if they're really scrambling F-16s for stadium incursions?
Sac Arrow
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- May 11, 2010
- Messages
- 20,362
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- Display Name
Display name:
Snorting his way across the USA
If that's the real reason for them, then the NOTAM is a sham, because it classifies them as "national defense airspace."
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978167&postcount=47
Does anyone know if they're really scrambling F-16s for stadium incursions?
Hmm, if they did, I can see a good way to arrange for an F-16 flyover at your local high school football game!
Clark1961
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 17,737
- Display Name
Display name:
Display name:
I was listening to BJC tower when some guy had gone over Coors Field during a Rockies game. No F-16s but there was a number to call. The tower folks were pretty excited.
NoHeat
En-Route
At my BFR I was told that at towered airports ATIS is a way of learning about a TFR, but that's no help at untowered airports like the one that's within 3 miles of the college football station where I live.
slacktide
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2008
- Messages
- 556
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan
I know someone who was intercepted by F-15s for loitering above a college football stadium during a game - above the TFR ceiling. They circled around a few times then bugged out.
I suppose that's true
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
Wow...That guy does not sound like he is in pocession of all his marbles....
be safe out there guys.
be safe out there guys.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Yeah, have heard that at both BJC and APA. "Possible pilot deviation..."
When I left Orlando, where I learned to fly, 25 years ago there was an ongoing TFR over Disneyworld / EPCOT.. Their excuse back then was the lasers "might" blind pilots so that made the "mousehouse" nitetime tour off limits... Funny how much clout big business has.
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
Also no help if the TFR is 100 NM from your point of departure....
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
Display name:
MAKG
It's also no guarantee much closer to your point of departure.
I don't hear about Stanford games at PAO ATIS, and the stadium is inside Class D. On the other hand, when something nasty goes down in East Palo Alto (all the fricken' time) and the cops are flying a helicopter off the 13 numbers, then that's on ATIS, often with restrictions on what kinds of departures are allowed.
matthammer
Pre-takeoff checklist
I probably would've busted a TFR just a couple days ago were it not for ATC warning me. We had a helicopter go down a few miles NE of TTN. I saw the mushroom cloud go up while I was flying from Princeton back to Trenton. Tower advised us of the TFR, so we cut the lesson short right before it went active. I'd really like to know how the FAA can justify violating someone for busting a TFR when there's no reasonable way you could have known the TFR even existed.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
Since it's inside the class D, as long as you follow the normal requirement to be in contact with the tower, and follow their instructions, it shouldn't be an issue. From the NOTAM:
I'm assuming they don't hold games there before 7:00 AM or after 9:00 PM, when the tower is closed.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
Display name:
MAKG
That would be incorrect.
The SJSU and Duke games were both at night and were still going on at 9PM.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
OK, thanks for the info. I'll keep that in mind for future night flights.
bjohnsonmn
Pre-takeoff checklist
Dear god... with all of the tools at our disposal, the services paid for with our AVGAS taxes, you'd think people would check! I fly at a D under a B. Nearly every weekend you hear some old timer coming in and doesn't understand what "read back hold short instructions with callsign" means... for Christ sakes... Who's doing the BFR's these days!!!!!