Density altitude

Btl60

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Hello all,

I'm stuck on the reasoning of density at high altitudes. At high altitudes aircraft performance is decreased due too less density. What's contradictory is that the higher altitude the colder the air causing the air to be more dense. Can someone clear this situation up for me?

I'm currently studying aircraft performance and how high altitude, high temperature and high humidity decrease aircraft performance.
 
You're exactly right. It does get colder with altitude. However a major component in density altitude is pressure. And, with altitude, the density decreases due to pressure faster than it increases due to temperature.
 
There's also less pressure, which means fewer molecules.

I'll let the smarter people go into more detail.
 
Hello all,

I'm stuck on the reasoning of density at high altitudes. At high altitudes aircraft performance is decreased due too less density. What's contradictory is that the higher altitude the colder the air causing the air to be more dense. Can someone clear this situation up for me?

I'm currently studying aircraft performance and how high altitude, high temperature and high humidity decrease aircraft performance.

There's less air up there. It may be more dense than if it was 102F at the same altitude but there's still less of it than at sea level. Go hiking in Yellostone, your lungs will explain it.
 
Okay, my understanding now is that there is less gravitational pull at higher altitudes causing the air to dissipate.
 
Think of it as filling a beaker up with water. Whats down low is more dense. Ever dive in the ocean...what happens to your ears at 8-10 feet? That's the water density. The water has weight, air does too.

Same thing with air. There's more 'sitting on top of it' at lower altitudes so it's more dense.
 
No, that's water pressure. Water density varies with salinity, but VERY little with depth.

Your lungs do not feel density altitude, they feel pressure altitude. The temperature is always the same when you breathe -- 98.6 F -- and lungs work by suction and inhale by volume, so density cancels. If you go up Pike's Peak early in the morning vs. midafternoon, you'll feel equally crappy under both conditions.

Pressure altitude really is just pressure with a relabeled scale, corresponding to a fictional "standard atmosphere." There is a standard temperature that goes with that. Indicated altitude has a pressure correction for the actual pressure at a station, expressed so that the altimeter would read true altitude at the station. Density altitude is the temperature correction to pressure altitude expressed a little strangely; it's not the true altitude anywhere, but rather the altitude you would get if your altimeter read density instead of pressure. On a hot day, it can be thousands of feet higher than true altitude, even worse at high altitudes.

With a modern POH that gives temperature dependent performance tables, it's most useful for comparing to the service ceiling. A 172 is likely to have trouble crossing a 10,000 foot pass on a hot summer day. Take a look at those performance tables at, say, 6000 feet at 90 deg F and you'll see some pretty long takeoff rolls.
 
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Think of it as filling a beaker up with water. Whats down low is more dense. Ever dive in the ocean...what happens to your ears at 8-10 feet? That's the water density.
Actually, that's pressure, not density. Liquids are pretty near incompressible, so their density doesn't change much with pressure.
The water has weight, air does too.
Now that is correct, and it's why pressure is higher at the bottom of the fluid mass. But the reason air density changes as you go up through the air mass is that air is compressible, and so its density changes dramatically with pressure.

Let's start with Boyle's Law:

PV=nRT

...where:
P=pressure
V=volume
n=number of moles
R=universal gas constant
T=temperature

We can reorganize that to:

nR/V = P/T

...and nR/V is proportional to mass per unit volume, or density (ρ). Thus, air density is proportional to pressure divided by temperature. Note that for these purposes, we use absolute temperature, not the more commonly used Fahrenheit or Celsius scales.

The reason air density goes down as you go up the atmosphere even though (at least up to the tropopause) temperature is also going down (which would otherwise cause density to increase) is that the change in absolute pressure is way greater than the change in absolute temperature. Standard temperature at sea level is 15C, which is an absolute temperature of 288K (degrees Kelvin). As you go up, say, 10,000 feet, that temperature drops about 2 degrees/1000 feet, so temperature at 10,000 MSL drops about 20 degrees to 268K, a reduction of only about 7%. At the same time, pressure drops from 30" Hg to about 20" HG, or a drop of about 33%. Thus, the downward change in pressure overwhelms the reduction in temperature, and air density goes down by about 24%.

Same thing with air. There's more 'sitting on top of it' at lower altitudes so it's more dense.
That's true for air as it is a compressible gas, but not really for water, as it is a liquid and thus virtually incompressible.
 
How many times can one be fooled by Pete?
 
Okay, my understanding now is that there is less gravitational pull at higher altitudes causing the air to dissipate.
Wrong, but thank you for playing.

Any difference in gravity at altitude is negligible.
 
I like the theory... Even if there is no air in outer space, it's cold enough that our piston aircraft should perform just fine.
 
Actually... Before you all start ridiculing him (boy do I know the feeling!), his statement is actually true the big picture reason why the atmosphere is more dense closer to mean sea level, and becomes less dense at altitude IS due to gravity. This is the same reason why water pressure in the ocean increases with depth too.

As for the rest... The ideal gas law PV=nRT helps you understand what is going on. Pressure, Volume and Temperature are all interrelated. That fact combined with the external factors of radiational heating from the ground and solar radiation all combine to cause the temperature variations with altitude.

Glad to help.
 
I like the theory... Even if there is no air in outer space, it's cold enough that our piston aircraft should perform just fine.

Things can and do get very hot at very low densities. The temperature of the sun's atmosphere (corona) is thousands of times higher than the surface.

The stratosphere is inverted. That makes it stable. The standard atmosphere says it's isothermal, but that's a result of averaging over a widely varying tropopause height (it's well over 50,000 feet at the equator, not the 36000 and change we were taught in ground school -- and half the globe is at less than 30 deg latitude). The thermosphere and exosphere are very strongly inverted.
 
Wrong, but thank you for playing.

Any difference in gravity at altitude is negligible.

....no, sir thank you for playing...the gravitational pull on earth is what causes weight and thus giving weight to the air. The higher you go in altitude out of the atmosphere the less the gravitational pull lessening the density of the atmosphere. That is why the moon doesn't have oxygen and we are seemingly weightless. No gravitational pull. :D
 
....no, sir thank you for playing...the gravitational pull on earth is what causes weight and thus giving weight to the air. The higher you go in altitude out of the atmosphere the less the gravitational pull lessening the density of the atmosphere. That is why the moon doesn't have oxygen and we are seemingly weightless. No gravitational pull. :D

Well the moon does have 1/6 the gravitational pull of earth, but you knew that.

Think of the atmosphere as a bunch of pillows. Like trillions of them. All stacked on top of each other. At the top, the pillows will be fluffy. At the bottom they'll be compressed like sardines, due to the weight of the millions of pillows on top of them. The higher up you go, the less compact the pillows get, until you get on the top and there is no compression at all.

The pillows described above are air molecules. The top layer of pillows is the edge of the atmosphere. Everything above the pillows is space.

The pull of gravity on the top of the pile is effectively the same as the pull at the bottom of the pile. Gravity is the means of mass of pillows having weight, a downward force. Your mass is constant whether you're on the earth or the moon. On the moon, you weigh less, because there's less mass.
 
Heat rises, therefore the higher you go the warmer it gets. That's why astronauts wear air conditioned suits. And why meteorites always burn up. These are all facts, that are easily verifiable because of government studies on the effects of gravity, particle acceleration and swamp gas on small toys at high altitudes.

cliffs: On PoA, any sufficiently technical question will be argued by several opposing sides using facts, charts, references and eye witness accounts until long after life support has been removed from the thread.
 
Wrong, but thank you for playing.

The OP used the important qualifier "my understanding". And asked for understanding from the original post. So the snideness was absolutely not called for. There is no point in posting belittling provocations unless your intent is to turn short threads into longer ones. They certainly don't show how clever you are but something else....

Any difference in gravity at altitude is negligible.

It helps to show this mathematically. For example, the radius of the earth is about 4000 miles. Gravitation force Fg at a distance R is Fg = K/(R*R), (where K is a constant for this scenario) so going from 4000 to, say, 4002 mile from the center, the force 2 miles above the surface is still 99.9% of the ground value. On the other hand, the air pressure drops from 14.7 psia to 10.1 psia.
 
So if density goes down overall with an increase of altitude, why then, does the speed of sound go up?

Ummmm? Ummmmm? Anyone got a good answer for that???
 
So if density goes down overall with an increase of altitude, why then, does the speed of sound go up?

Ummmm? Ummmmm? Anyone got a good answer for that???
Temperature, not altitude.
 
Ah, but density regulates the speed of sound, right? Sound is faster in water than air (4x) and faster in iron still (15x).
 
Ah, but density regulates the speed of sound, right? Sound is faster in water than air (4x) and faster in iron still (15x).
Ha. In a gas, it's the temperature of the gas that regulates the speed of sound, not the density. Other mediums - water, metal, for example, - the density matters. Not so much in gas, though. :nono:

edit: I may be wrong about this, but I seem to recall something about the gas molecules vibrating against each other slower when it's cold and faster when it's warm. And I have now reached the end of my rope on this subject. From here on out there be monsters. :)
 
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Ah, but density regulates the speed of sound, right? Sound is faster in water than air (4x) and faster in iron still (15x).

Temperature and molecular weight affect speed of sound:

Vs = (γ.R.T/μ)1/2

where:

Vs = Speed of sound (m/s)
T = temperature of the gas (K)
R = Gas constant (8314 J/(K.kmol))
γ = heat capacity ratio of the medium (5/3 for a monatomic gas like helium; about 1.4 for the atmosphere.)
μ = molecular weight of the medium (kg/kmol) (about 28.97 for the atmosphere)

Another way to look at is that speed of sound is some number which is very roughly 1/2 the average speed of the molecules in the medium. You can no doubt find a longer and more precise discussion of the speed of sound by using a web search engine than asking on this forum.
 
Temperature and molecular weight affect speed of sound:

Vs = (γ.R.T/μ)1/2

where:

Vs = Speed of sound (m/s)
T = temperature of the gas (K)
R = Gas constant (8314 J/(K.kmol))
γ = heat capacity ratio of the medium (5/3 for a monatomic gas like helium; about 1.4 for the atmosphere.)
μ = molecular weight of the medium (kg/kmol) (about 28.97 for the atmosphere)

Another way to look at is that speed of sound is some number which is very roughly 1/2 the average speed of the molecules in the medium. You can no doubt find a longer and more precise discussion of the speed of sound by using a web search engine than asking on this forum.
Or for a shorter and more concise version, just ask a hunter. Sound travels farther in cold air than it does in hot air.
 
Temperature and molecular weight affect speed of sound:

Vs = (γ.R.T/μ)1/2

where:

Vs = Speed of sound (m/s)
T = temperature of the gas (K)
R = Gas constant (8314 J/(K.kmol))
γ = heat capacity ratio of the medium (5/3 for a monatomic gas like helium; about 1.4 for the atmosphere.)
μ = molecular weight of the medium (kg/kmol) (about 28.97 for the atmosphere)

Another way to look at is that speed of sound is some number which is very roughly 1/2 the average speed of the molecules in the medium. You can no doubt find a longer and more precise discussion of the speed of sound by using a web search engine than asking on this forum.

I was actually being coy. I knew the answer but nowhere near that level. It's sort been a trick question to spark hangar conversations. Thanks for the in depth explanation though. Too bad ill never be able to explain it. :confused:
 
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