Deltahawk update from S&F looks good!

flyingcheesehead said:
The Denali is Textron's replacement for the C90.
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As I recall, the Denali was to be originally a Cessna product to upgrade on the Caravan whose market the PC-12 was eating into with its off-airport capability. However, I believe once Cessna got the green light to develop the Sky Courier that airframe was moved over to the Beechcraft unit. And since the PC-12 has become a popular aircraft with some fractional companies, I can see where the tie-in to the King Air line would make sense as well.
 
There's no shortage of STC's out there, so there must be reasonably viable regulatory paths. I knew a retired Army officer 25 years ago who was a corporate jet pilot and bonanza hobbyist. He got his A&P/IA souping his Bo up as a show plane. He developed a way to mount extra landing lights on the gear legs, got an STC, and for a while made a tidy sum doing installs.
 
StraightnLevel said:
So, how should we go about trying to fix it?
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I'm just ignoring everyone and everything that's official.
I have a prototype v 2.01 in my plane. it works fine so far, but needs lot's more testing and in aircraft faster than mine. :)
Maybe I could even put my code in a Flight Sim aircraft for testing purposes.
Nah. I can simulate size and speed, but it's not really the same thing as real world.
 
MauleSkinner said:
The C90 was probably quietly discontinued to boost sales on the 200…much like the Queen Air was discontinued to boost sales of the 90, and the Beech 18 was discontinued to boost sales on the Queen Air…
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They successfully coexisted for 50 years. And the 200 is a notably larger aircraft. There was an obvious progression from the Twin Bonanza to the Queen Air to the King Air. The Twin Beech (18) wasn't discontinued until the Queen Air had been out for a decade and the King Air was out for 6 years, it just didn't really have a place in the product line any more.

What changed is not only the PC12 but all of the other single-engine turboprops that are not only cheaper to operate, but usually faster as well. The only thing the King Air 90 still had going for it besides the name was its reputation and the fact that it has two engines, which is becoming less and less necessary due to the PT-6A's increasingly stellar (and well deserved) reputation.

FWIW, Pilatus didn't join GAMA until 2001 so sales before that are somewhat of a mystery... But if you're correct, Textron's move was an utter failure:

In 2001, Pilatus sold 70 PC12s and Raytheon sold 41 C90Bs and 46 B200s (87). The two King Airs win by a bit.
In 2006, Pilatus sold 90 PC12s and Raytheon sold 52 C90Bs/C90GTs and 42 B200s (104). King Airs win by a bit again.
In 2011, Pilatus sold 63 PC12s and Hawker Beechcraft sold 29 C90GTs and 25 B200s/250s (54). Pilatus now selling more than the two King Airs.
In 2016, Pilatus sold 91 PC12s and Textron sold 11 C90GTxs and 32 250s (43). Pilatus now more than double the two King Airs, with the 90 series taking most of the hit.
In 2020, Pilatus sold 70 PC12s and Textron sold 8 C90GTxs and 20 250s (28). Last year of the 90s, which are being outsold by the PC12 by nearly an order of magnitude.
In 2021, Pilatus sold 88 PC12s and Textron sold 22 250s/260s. No real recovery in the 200-series King Airs.
 
Bell206 said:
As I recall, the Denali was to be originally a Cessna product to upgrade on the Caravan whose market the PC-12 was eating into with its off-airport capability. However, I believe once Cessna got the green light to develop the Sky Courier that airframe was moved over to the Beechcraft unit. And since the PC-12 has become a popular aircraft with some fractional companies, I can see where the tie-in to the King Air line would make sense as well.
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Yes, the Denali was originally going to be a Cessna. It was officially named in 2016, and became the Beechcraft Denali in 2021.
The 408 SkyCourier was launched in 2017, first flew in 2020, and shipped in 2022.
The C90 line was very quietly discontinued in early 2021.

Ed Haywood said:
There's no shortage of STC's out there, so there must be reasonably viable regulatory paths.
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Naah, there's just a lot of Bonanzas. There are a ton of STCs for Bonanzas, 172s, and other types with lots of examples in the field, which makes the market more viable. There's a lot of STCs listed for types like the Comanche/Twin Comanche that were quite popular in the late 60s and 70s, but most of them aren't available any more.

Shepherd said:
I'm just ignoring everyone and everything that's official.
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There's something to that. I met a guy that builds brand new wood wings for Howards as well as doing wood parts for several other aircraft types:

IMG_7728.JPG
He has exactly zero official FAA approvals to do so, nor does he want them. As I understand it, the A&P who installs them signs them off.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
He has exactly zero official FAA approvals to do so, nor does he want them. As I understand it, the A&P who installs them signs them off.
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Signed off as repairs and/or owner produced parts, which require no specific FAA approvals beyond the A&P or Inspector signature and appropriate 337s.
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
In 2011, Pilatus sold 63 PC12s and Hawker Beechcraft sold 29 C90GTs and 25 B200s/250s (54). Pilatus now selling more than the two King Airs.
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From my vantage point back in the early 2000s there was a shift from piston twins like Barons to used B200s. The change was dramatic enough that the regional Beechcraft shops became booked months out for even basic inspections which at the time were mostly a 150hr Phase with a 75 hour interim inspection. Made some good money on the 75 insps until the market crashed in 2008 and the shops took back all the work as their gravy train dried up as well. And from what I saw it was at that dip in the industry that the PC-12 and those other single turbines captured the market. Will be interesting to see how the Denali competes with the PC-12.

flyingcheesehead said:
He has exactly zero official FAA approvals to do so, nor does he want them. As I understand it, the A&P who installs them signs them off.
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MauleSkinner said:
Signed off as repairs and/or owner produced parts, which require no specific FAA approvals beyond the A&P or Inspector signature and appropriate 337s.
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Except you still need approved data at that level to include OPPs, but so long as you stay below a "major change to type design" no STCs needed. Same process works with a number of parts and assemblies. Unfortunately the numbers of those type shops are dwindling for various reasons. One of which is more owners (and some mechanics) prefer not to pursue these types routes and would rather blame the system instead of use it for their benefit. Was a time when owners would readily have genuine ideas to improve their aircraft and they'd get them installed with some making it to the STC levels.
 
The Beechcraft Denali is not competing with the TBM/Vision Jet/Epic(<=6 seats), it is directly competing with the PC-12. It fits 9 passengers, just like the Pilatus. Denali/King Air/PC-12 are a different class of aircraft from the Epic/Vision Jet/TBM. It would not surprise me if they do well, as it seems like the PC-12 class sells the best currently.
 
Bell206 said:
From my vantage point back in the early 2000s there was a shift from piston twins like Barons to used B200s. The change was dramatic enough that the regional Beechcraft shops became booked months out for even basic inspections which at the time were mostly a 150hr Phase with a 75 hour interim inspection. Made some good money on the 75 insps until the market crashed in 2008 and the shops took back all the work as their gravy train dried up as well. And from what I saw it was at that dip in the industry that the PC-12 and those other single turbines captured the market. Will be interesting to see how the Denali competes with the PC-12.
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Agreed, though I think that C90s probably got as much or more of the former Baron market too.

Corin said:
The Beechcraft Denali is not competing with the TBM/Vision Jet/Epic(<=6 seats), it is directly competing with the PC-12. It fits 9 passengers, just like the Pilatus. Denali/King Air/PC-12 are a different class of aircraft from the Epic/Vision Jet/TBM. It would not surprise me if they do well, as it seems like the PC-12 class sells the best currently.
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You wouldn't think... However, it seems like, at least for owner-pilots who aren't going to be filling all of the seats on the Denali/C90/PC12 class, they seem to consider all of the above. Daher definitely pays close attention to how they're competing with Pilatus.
 
Is there any new info on:
1. when will someone be able to install the 235 hp DeltaHawk engine in a C182
2. how much the whole thing will cost (parts+labor)
 
PC12 is a great plane, but not without its flaws. The NGX I have a couple hundred hours in had auto pilot issues, and the auto throttle was never used. I am told the newer versions have Garmin panels and auto pilots, I suspect that is a big improvement.
The place I worked did all their own in house maintenance, except the PC12. It had to go to a Pilatus service center, they wouldn't sell parts to the company I worked for. All the other airplanes where I worked were Textron at the time, made sense for another Textron product.
 
MountainDude said:
Is there any new info on:
1. when will someone be able to install the 235 hp DeltaHawk engine in a C182
2. how much the whole thing will cost (parts+labor)
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They sent out an email update a while ago with a render of the install on a C182T. They seem to be working on an STC for the 182T first (makes sense given that it's fuel injected and probably easier to adapt). I hope they then follow-up and expand the STC to pre-restart models.
 
Katamarino said:
They sent out an email update a while ago with a render of the install on a C182T. They seem to be working on an STC for the 182T first (makes sense given that it's fuel injected and probably easier to adapt). I hope they then follow-up and expand the STC to pre-restart models.
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Thanks. If it's $150K, it will be very difficult to justify it relative to Pponk or even IO-550, but that will depend on the availability of 100LL at our global destinations.
 
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