Delaying ATC deviation

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
I'm reflecting on a XC flight I made last year, my personal longest to date 300nm executed in a single hop. Destination: KCLT, a class B(usy) airport.

About 90 miles to destination, I received a vector (combined with an altitude restriction - not relevant to my question).

ATC held me on this vector for quite awhile, long enough that I thought they'd forgotten about us.

I am wondering if in retrospect, it would have been acceptable to turn to the assigned course and reduce speed to minimum.
 
You can always ask. That's what I do. Sometimes I'm forgotten about, but often I can negotiate something more favorable to me. I think your proposal to turn on course and offer to slow up a a bit would have been an excellent proposal to ATC.
 
ChrisK said:
You can always ask. That's what I do. Sometimes I'm forgotten about, but often I can negotiate something more favorable to me. I think your proposal to turn on course and offer to slow up a a bit would have been an excellent proposal to ATC.
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This is what I do when I'm more or less forgotten about on a VFR flight following.
 
I'm assuming they were giving you vectors for going into CLT. Yeah, they give vectors that are out a long time. Keep in mind that, even if you're VFR, you're effectively under their control getting vectored into the Bravo. If you're within the confines of the Bravo, you are under control. I wouldn't change just because I thought I was forgotten about, but I would ask.
 
Another good reason to keep the radio off until you get near the Bravo.
 
It doesn't hurt to ask, "Approach, did you still want N123 to fly heading XXX?"

Unless you are a jet, speed control won't help much if you are a Cessna 172 being sequenced with heavy iron. Class B airspace requires positive control. If you are VFR we have to provide 1 1/2 NM or 500ft separation. In addition, we have wake turbulence minima that we have to adhere to.
 
Vectors outside the Bravo, a tricky one. They should be stated as suggested headings only...and there is no separation provided between VFR and IFR in Class E, which is where this occurred.

It could be that they were setting you up for a good spot to enter the Bravo, but it would've been nice if they provided a reason for the vector.
 
From which direction were you coming? Almost all large airports run a four post system with 4 arrival corridors (i.e. NE, SE, SW, NW) and 4 departure corridors (i.e. N, E, S, W). If you were arriving up a departure corridor, they would likely vector you over into the flow of an arrival corridor. It probably wasn't a vector for delay, just a vector for traffic.

Often it's beneficial to just file the arrival (if you were IFR, not sure if you were).
 
EdFred said:
"via KELSI" ring a bell? :rofl:
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Yep, I gave EON.V38.KELSI countless times. You wouldn't like the alternative.

During the day, you'd be vectored west of DPA at 3-4k. No higher. Too much going on at ORD and MDW to allow overflights.
 
When given a deviation,usually keep the speed up ,as act has factored your speed into the deviation. If you want to slow down ask.
 
frfly172 said:
When given a deviation,usually keep the speed up ,as act has factored your speed into the deviation. If you want to slow down ask.
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Absolutely, if ATC notices your speed drop, the controller may question you thinking you are experiencing a safety issue.
 
MarkZ said:
True. :rolleyes2:

Harder to get traffic advisories of the 737 about to buzz you. :hairraise:
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I'm willing to take that risk with my txp and enc working. If there's a 737 at my altitude under or around the side of the B, then something has gone horribly wrong.
 
always ask if things are unclear. I was doing a short IFR x country from KFRG to KBDL and on the way back NY App, told me they were going to vector me through the ILS 14 localizer course to get some arrivals into Kennedy. So we flew through it once heading southwest until the end of the south shore of long island until we finally got vectored back to the approach course. i noticed that we were about to go through the localizer course again and queued ATC which they kinda said "o yea" turn right heading XXX, intercept at or above 2000, cleared ILS 14 circling 19. it never hurts to ask ATC
 
docmirror said:
I'm willing to take that risk with my txp and enc working. If there's a 737 at my altitude under or around the side of the B, then something has gone horribly wrong.
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The OP was landing at the primary airport. Getting clearance to do so is all about timing and planning. An early call-up will go a long way to getting you clearance. Waiting until the last possible moment to call for clearance is not advisable.

Participating IFR aircraft can, and HAVE, exited and re-entered the Bravo. Both via the side and via a high shelf. Happens more than you may want to think. ATC will vector IFR aircraft to remain clear of 1200 codes, but its better (for ATC) to know what the VFR is doing than to guess.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I am wondering if in retrospect, it would have been acceptable to turn to the assigned course and reduce speed to minimum.
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Sure. Per the recent Karas interpretation (below), once ATC has instructed you to turn to a specific heading, you have to get permission to deviate from that assigned heading, but need no additional approval to turn to it.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../2013/karas - (2013) legal interpretation.pdf

However, your instruction said nothing about speed, and the book only talks about notifying the controller of speed changes if you're IFR. Or course, in that situation, it might be courteous to advise the controller of a speed change so s/he can anticipate the effect of that on other traffic.
 
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docmirror said:
Another good reason to keep the radio off until you get near the Bravo.
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The closer you are to the Bravo when you make your request for transit, the harder it is for the controller to work you in, and the larger the deviation that may be necessary at that closer point.
 
Ron Levy said:
The closer you are to the Bravo when you make your request for transit, the harder it is for the controller to work you in, and the larger the deviation that may be necessary at that closer point.
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That has never been my experience with DFW, PHX, LAX, SFO, DEN, or a few others. Maybe the easterners are different. In fact, I'm usually arriving PHX from the north, and I get a mid-field overflight, left traffic for the 27, change to tower, and land all in one-two shot. LAX ATC puts me through the corridor over LAX going north, so that's no big deal, and SFO gives me the cement plant to bay bridge @ 2500'. At DFW, I call out to the west and request direct eastbound on the Maverick VOR, and only once have I had a slight delay. Not sure what I'm doing wrong, but it's been working well for a while.
 
This is why I file all the time, if you are comfortable with the system then it's easier to get what you want. I have taken a few diversions, but ATC has helped me more times than I can count. If I think I am going off course or forgotten, "center, Nxxxx, requests direct kxyz". If they don't give it to you they will explain why not. No biggie.
 
docmirror said:
That has never been my experience with DFW, PHX, LAX, SFO, DEN, or a few others.
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You need to broaden your experience. My perspective is based on the fact that I doubt there's a B-space in the USA I haven't been in or around. Don't try calling Potomac, Philly, Chicago, Charlotte, Atlanta, or New York TRACONs five miles from the B-space ring and expect to get an immediate clearance through, or even expect to get in at all unless you're landing at a primary airport. Knowing that early makes a big difference in starting any needed deviation early so you minimize the extra distance flown.
 
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Jaybird180 said:
I'm reflecting on a XC flight I made last year, my personal longest to date 300nm executed in a single hop. Destination: KCLT, a class B(usy) airport.

About 90 miles to destination, I received a vector (combined with an altitude restriction - not relevant to my question).

ATC held me on this vector for quite awhile, long enough that I thought they'd forgotten about us.

I am wondering if in retrospect, it would have been acceptable to turn to the assigned course and reduce speed to minimum.
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Assuming VFR; you can do that but doing unexpected things just jams up the works. Probably takes longer too. If you understand what and why they are doing something then it might makes sense. If so, be helpful and inform them of your planned action.
docmirror said:
Another good reason to keep the radio off until you get near the Bravo.
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I did that twice going into CLT from the east. Both times I was told to make more than (1) 360 before being given Class B clearance and a vector. YMMV.
Ted DuPuis said:
I'm assuming they were giving you vectors for going into CLT. Yeah, they give vectors that are out a long time. Keep in mind that, even if you're VFR, you're effectively under their control getting vectored into the Bravo. If you're within the confines of the Bravo, you are under control. I wouldn't change just because I thought I was forgotten about, but I would ask.
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Yes, all that plus flying a 100-120 knot machine say with a headwind, they do 'forget' about you sometimes among all the higher, faster movers. Slowing down just makes that more likely. Asking after a bit always makes sense if you think that's what is happening.

I do CLT a lot. After the Maule I find it's a lot easier for everyone at 150knots and IFR in my '10.
 
Ron Levy said:
You need to broaden your experience. My perspective is based on the fact that I doubt there's a B-space in the USA I haven't been in or around. Don't try calling Potomac, Philly, Chicago, Charlotte, Atlanta, or New York TRACONs five miles from the B-space ring and expect to get an immediate clearance through, or even expect to get in at all unless you're landing at a primary airport. Knowing that early makes a big difference in starting any needed deviation early so you minimize the extra distance flown.
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Sad. I'm just an airspace user, ya know...
 
Chicago is funky. I ask "Is there any altitude I can fly at to avoid going to KELSI?" (I was already bopping along IFR at 10,000.) They went off frequency for a minute and said "NOPE." I said, OK, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to cancel IFR, climb up 500' and you can give me flight following. This worked fine and they held MDW and ORD departures at 9000 until I got past...except for the one they missed that caused a TCAS RA on his part.
 
docmirror said:
Sad. I'm just an airspace user, ya know...
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Not sad, just life as it is. It's all about being part of a team with the controllers. Play as a team member, and life goes smoother. Play hide-and-seek, and it just makes life more difficult for everyone, including the hider.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not sad, just life as it is. It's all about being part of a team with the controllers. Play as a team member, and life goes smoother. Play hide-and-seek, and it just makes life more difficult for everyone, including the hider.
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You read things, but often you don't comprehend what's been written. I have never had a problem with a pop-up into the various B. I'm going to keep doing it the way I do it unless, or until it becomes a problem for me.

Oh, we are not all team members. I"m an individual, flying my own plane, where I want to go, and it is the job of the support system(ATC) to provide service. They have, and will provide that service, and if that means I have to do two 360s(big whoop) in the process so be it. After a short time, my next transmission will be 'fuel advisory', and then 'fuel crit'.
 
Ron Levy said:
You need to broaden your experience. My perspective is based on the fact that I doubt there's a B-space in the USA I haven't been in or around. Don't try calling Potomac, Philly, Chicago, Charlotte, Atlanta, or New York TRACONs five miles from the B-space ring and expect to get an immediate clearance through, or even expect to get in at all unless you're landing at a primary airport. Knowing that early makes a big difference in starting any needed deviation early so you minimize the extra distance flown.
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They must like my voice better. I've called from under the shelves at each of those and never had an issue or a remain clear. Philly even gave me a guided tour of the city. AdamZ was :mad:.
 
Ron Levy said:
Now that is sad. Too bad you feel that way.
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All about the feelings I guess. Am I mistaken? Have I made a factual error in my general eval of the nature of our relationship with ATC?

If one doesn't want to get vectored, don't call!

If you want to get into the B, fly up to it, and advise them of your intent.

Accept your squawk, go where they say, and it's all hearts and flowers.

Some folks have trouble with ATC, and some of us don't.

Buh-bye
 
If there's a 737 at my altitude under or around the side of the B, then something has gone horribly wrong.
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Either that or you're flying in the northeast where there are jets all over the place at 5-9k that are outside the lateral limits of the Bravo.

Your attitude about the working relationship with ATC and pilots doesn't scale.
 
docmirror said:
All about the feelings I guess. Am I mistaken? Have I made a factual error in my general eval of the nature of our relationship with ATC?
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Yeah, I guess it is all about attitude.

If one doesn't want to get vectored, don't call!
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Agreed.

If you want to get into the B, fly up to it, and advise them of your intent.
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Not workable at most B-spaces I know unless you're willing to do 360's while the work it out.

Accept your squawk, go where they say, and it's all hearts and flowers.
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As long as you don't mind the delays if you don't give them fair warning.

Some folks have trouble with ATC, and some of us don't.
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I have no trouble at all, including the facilities many folks rail against. Guess it's how I approach the problem. ;)
 
coma24 said:
Either that or you're flying in the northeast where there are jets all over the place at 5-9k that are outside the lateral limits of the Bravo.

Your attitude about the working relationship with ATC and pilots doesn't scale.
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Why would I care about aluminum overcast from 5-9k, I'm at 3500' or below. I'm going into a B to do business, and have no reason to be above 3500, except for PHX in the north or east end. In the eastern states, even more relative, as I think the highest sector of a B is about 1200'?

You'se guys fly the way you want, and I'll do it the way I want. I have NEVER had a problem, one slight delay in one entry for spacing. At least ATC isn't sending me to BFE at their leisure like the OP.

Another person who thinks attitude and feelings are relevant. Try to keep it professional, or I guess go ahead and prostrate yourselves on the mercy of ATC, take your vectors to Ottowa and like it. No thank you.
 
Wow, this thread got stupid. Doc, go fly the way you want. Try declaring a fuel emergency when one doesn't exist. Come back and let everyone knows how that goes. Laughable that you speak of professionalism a few posts later.

To the OP, if you're getting turned far away from the Bravo airport, let it go for a minute or two. When there's a break in the action ask the controller if they want you to keep flying that heading. I'm guessing if they cleared you into the bravo to land, they'll have no problem telling you the plan.

Maybe, they had to get you to the other side of the field. Maybe they needed to get you clear of a busy sector. I'm not sure. VFR aircraft are given lowest priority. So if your route will cause delay to IFR aircraft movement, it probably won't happen.
 
MarkZ said:
Maybe, they had to get you to the other side of the field. Maybe they needed to get you clear of a busy sector. I'm not sure. VFR GA aircraft are given lowest priority. So if your route will cause delay to IFR airline aircraft movement, it probably won't happen.
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I had to change it a little bit. ;)
 
flyingron said:
Chicago is funky. I ask "Is there any altitude I can fly at to avoid going to KELSI?" (I was already bopping along IFR at 10,000.) They went off frequency for a minute and said "NOPE." I said, OK, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to cancel IFR, climb up 500' and you can give me flight following. This worked fine and they held MDW and ORD departures at 9000 until I got past...except for the one they missed that caused a TCAS RA on his part.
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I had the same thing happen on a PA to Montauk LI flight with the lively and loose folks at NY ATC. I got an IFR clearance that took me up through Kingston, over to CT and across the sound somewhere well east of NYC. I asked for something more straight forward and shorter and was turned down. But like the NY controllers often do, they gave me a big hint that going VFR would be a solution. I cancelled and was immediately granted a Class B entry direct towards my destination.

On the way back I just called up VFR and was taken straight back over the city. A very memorable flight as the sun set and NYC slowly lit up like an old school pinball machine below us with the jets nicely lined up for the big 3 below. Gorgeous for quite awhile at <100 knots. Wish I had taken the door out.

Personally I fly 99% IFR because I like to have as many resources productively engaged as possible. When the teamwork works, it's great.

Different strokes.
 
EdFred said:
I had to change it a little bit. ;)
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I would appreciate you didn't. That is an untrue statement.

GA aircraft get no special priority over or under the heavy iron. We find a spot and throw you in there. Where that spot is may vary due to traffic load (and your aircraft's performance characteristics) at the time.
 
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