Definition question...

ScottK

ScottK

Pre-takeoff checklist
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ScottK
Our club (14 owners) has in it's by-laws that the plane is not to be used for commercial activity. Also, you must be a Private Pilot to be an owner. An owner that has a CFI has been training a non-member for primary PP training and the student is logging the time. At what point does this become a commercial activity? Is it paying for the instruction or does the student also have to pay aircraft fees to make it a commercial activity?

In addition, our insurance has told us that we would not be covered if a non-owner is getting training even if the CFI is an owner.
 
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Sounds commercial to me, even if no one is paying the CFI and/or plane.
 
I don't like the sound of that kind of set up. it sounds a lot like there is a commercial activity taking place if the instructor is making money Side note, 14 owners seems like a lot. I hope you guys have a king air or pc12.
 
The member is likely violating your bylaws and should be dealt with.

I'm in a club with similar restrictions. We also specifically prohibit primary training, so my dog will have to get trained elsewhere :)

The "every man" interpretation is that a member can get advanced training in the club aircraft, but nobody can give or receive primary training in club aircraft.
 
rolivi said:
The "every man" interpretation is that a member can get advanced training in the club aircraft, but nobody can give or receive primary training in club aircraft.
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That is our set up as well. But there are always 1 or 2 that think the rules are for somebody else.
 
Sounds like it's against the wording and the spirit of the clubs no commercial ops rule.




mtuomi said:
Against the regs then.
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Not enough facts to say that,
depends on how the students are paying,
if they are paying the same entity for both the plane and the CFI, it's commercial as far as the FAA stands, if they are not, it's not commericial and does don't require 100hrs per the feds
 
James331 said:
Not enough facts to say that,
depends on how the students are paying,
if they are paying the same entity for both the plane and the CFI, it's commercial as far as the FAA stands, if they are not, it's not commericial and does don't require 100hrs per the feds
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That's not how I read the regs.

"no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides,"
In this case, that person (CFI) is providing the aircraft. So it needs 100hr insp. Unless somehow the non-member is paying the club directly for the plane, which would seem highly unlikely (given that he is a non-member).
 
Look at it again

Say he get done with a days flight.

Cuts a check to Jo CFI for 2hrs dual
Cuts a check the XYZ Flying Club for 2hrs in the plane.

Hence Jo didn't provide the plane, no 100hr

Now if he cuts a check to Jo for 2hrs dual AND 2hrs in the plane, now we're in 100hr land.


Guess if you wanted to pick nitts, you'd also have to know if the members own a share of the aircraft as far as the feds are concerned.
 
I understand from OP this is happening without the club being involved = he just pays the CFI for time and plane. Goes completely against any normal club structure if a non-member will pay for what effectively is plane rental.
 
It's the student paying for the instruction? If not, why would it be commercial activity?
 
Lindberg said:
It's the student paying for the instruction? If not, why would it be commercial activity?
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Because the CFI gets compensated in flight time (unless we go to a REALLY unrealistic scenario, where the CFI pays his half of the flight costs and somehow the club takes payment from the non-member etc...)
 
mtuomi said:
Because the CFI gets compensated in flight time (unless we go to a REALLY unrealistic scenario, where the CFI pays his half of the flight costs and somehow the club takes payment from the non-member etc...)
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:confused: He's compensated in flight time by flying his own airplane? Who is he receiving that compensation from? From the information in the OP, it could be a dad training his son.
 
Lindberg said:
:confused: He's compensated in flight time by flying his own airplane? Who is he receiving that compensation from? From the information in the OP, it could be a dad training his son.
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Yes. Flight time = compensation. That's why I cannot fly my friends around in my own plane and ask them to pay for gas, only their pro-rated share.
 
mtuomi said:
Yes. Flight time = compensation. That's why I cannot fly my friends around in my own plane and ask them to pay for gas, only their pro-rated share.
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No, the reason you can't do that is because the regs say you can't do that. There's nothing in the OP to suggest the CFI is receiving any compensation, including flight time. Nevertheless, you're conflating two unrelated issues, "compensation" with respect to private pilots, and whether this is a "commercial" activity if no money is changing hands.
 
OK. In the typical POA fashion, let's just assume the most unrealistic scenarios to come up with a situation that MIGHT make this legal.
Then when we wake up and smell the coffee, what's happening is that the CFI is getting paid for his time and plane, he is logging time, and this is as commercial as it gets.
If it quacks like a duck...
 
mtuomi said:
OK. In the typical POA fashion, let's just assume the most unrealistic scenarios to come up with a situation that MIGHT make this legal.
Then when we wake up and smell the coffee, what's happening is that the CFI is getting paid for his time and plane, he is logging time, and this is as commercial as it gets.
If it quacks like a duck...
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But let's say the CFI is giving checkout in a HP plane and the student isn't HP endorsed and it's 1153pm sunset was 2 hours ago and the CFI isn't night current but the student is current at night in a multi engine land plane but the nav light on the plane is broken but the plane has a beacon and the visibility is 1 mile and there's a TFR that doesn't begin until 12am and the CFI decides to bring his girlfriend along for the ride and he wants to log the time as solo but he doesn't have his glider rating and the plane isn't equipped for day VFR flight so what is the price of rice in China?
 
jordane93 said:
But let's say the CFI is giving checkout in a HP plane and the student isn't HP endorsed and it's 1153pm sunset was 2 hours ago and the CFI isn't night current but the student is current at night in a multi engine land plane but the nav light on the plane is broken but the plane has a beacon and the visibility is 1 mile and there's a TFR that doesn't begin until 12am and the CFI decides to bring his girlfriend along for the ride and he wants to log the time as solo but he doesn't have his glider rating and the plane isn't equipped for day VFR flight so what is the price of rice in China?
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It was colonel mustard, in the library, with a candle stick, smuggled in from abroad in the clubs j3.
 
Also who says this plane isn't under 100hr already, if it hasn't flown 100hrs since the annual its A OK
 
Definitely sounds like someone is trying to fly under the radar with that one. It IS being used for a commercial purpose thus disregarding the "no commercial operations" rule of the club.

It becomes a commercial op., as soon as the money is exchanged for either flight time or operation costs of the airplane over the pro-rata portion for each person.
 
ScottK said:
In addition, our insurance has told us that we would not be covered if a non-owner is getting training even if the CFI is an owner.
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I'd be concerned about this if I had a ownership share.
 
jordane93 said:
But let's say the CFI is giving checkout in a HP plane and the student isn't HP endorsed and it's 1153pm sunset was 2 hours ago and the CFI isn't night current but the student is current at night in a multi engine land plane but the nav light on the plane is broken but the plane has a beacon and the visibility is 1 mile and there's a TFR that doesn't begin until 12am and the CFI decides to bring his girlfriend along for the ride and he wants to log the time as solo but he doesn't have his glider rating and the plane isn't equipped for day VFR flight so what is the price of rice in China?
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Damn you're hitting the sauce early aren't you Jordane? :eek: ;)
 
jordane93 said:
No just delirious from the past 3 days of 530am show times. Tomorrow is get home day and off for 4 days.
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Bah, try waking up from REM sleep at 0300 as the tones drop, wheels up 0315 ;)
 
mtuomi said:
OK. In the typical POA fashion, let's just assume the most unrealistic scenarios to come up with a situation that MIGHT make this legal.
Then when we wake up and smell the coffee, what's happening is that the CFI is getting paid for his time and plane, he is logging time, and this is as commercial as it gets.
If it quacks like a duck...
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I didn't assume, I asked. You assumed he's getting paid, even though there's nothing in the OP to suggest that. So why assume anything? :dunno:
 
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