Deficient NTSB Investigation?

Arnold

Arnold

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Arnold
This concerns the C310- landing accident at Lake Placid last September.

I know that the accidents that make the national news get the most attention, but I think this one deserved more than it got. To me there are many more unanswered questions than answered questions.

My analysis: http://www.arnoldfeldman.com/menublogs/catavblog

Let me know what you think, my site does not permit comments, but if you post them here I will read them.

Arnold
 
The AvWeb article did not specify the time of the accident but based on activating the lights we could assume it was dark?
But I think the pilot did everything right. The FSS and the local airport authority should be sholdering all of the blame and replacing his aircraft. FSS did not tell him there was a NOTAM for runway closure, the "X" on the runway was not lighted, but he got runway lights on.. how is he supposed to know there are ditches cut into the runway.
 
You seem to be more upset with the way the NTSB report is worded than anything else. But it seems the report pretty much shows that the lack of notification by the FSS was a factor. I'm sort of surprised that they don't mention the fact that the PCL was active was a factor but then I'm not sure what the regs are on that.

I think if the aircraft owner were to sue that he would probably win against both the FSS and probably the airport.

As far as the report goes it looks pretty much like the other non-fatal GA accident reports I've read and even most of the fatal ones.
 
Wow, that's horsecrap!

"The pilot's failure to observe the ongoing construction to the closed runway while landing. Contributing to the accident was flight service's failure to brief the pilot of the closed"

And I lose a little bit more respect for the NTSB. How the hell do they pin this one, of all flights on Pilot Error?
 
Arnold said:
This concerns the C310- landing accident at Lake Placid last September.

I know that the accidents that make the national news get the most attention, but I think this one deserved more than it got. To me there are many more unanswered questions than answered questions.

My analysis: http://www.arnoldfeldman.com/menublogs/catavblog

Let me know what you think, my site does not permit comments, but if you post them here I will read them.

Arnold
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Good analysis, Arnold.

I find it very odd that the runway lights were left operable and that the X markers were unlit. It's not clear if they used the stand-up X's or painted them on the runway surface, though. I'm also surprised that none of the other markers (cones at the threshold, and flashing markers on the runway farther down) were noticed, especially if the 310's landing lights were working properly. (Were they? :dunno:) Despite the nonstandard nature of those markings, I would think that if they were noticed the pilot should have initiated a go-around, possibly flying down the runway at 50 feet to assess it before climbing back up into the pattern.

If I were a LoPresti salesman, I know who I'd be calling! ;)
 
Let's see, FAA inspectors investigated this accident rather than NTSB investigators. And you're surprised it exonerates the FAA why?
 
I've never seen lit X's on a runway, just painted on. They would be invisible at night. If the briefer didn't mention it there is no way the pilot could have known. Not surprised the NTSB found it pilot error, no sense messing with their usual formula.
 
I landed in Springhill Louisiana at night back in the 60s...uneventful landing...next day I discovered a road grader parked on the end of the runway...I had landed over it and never knew it was there....better to be lucky than smart I guess....
 
steingar said:
I've never seen lit X's on a runway, just painted on.
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Larger airports have large X-shaped lighted signs on trailers they put at the threshold of closed runways. I've never seen one at anything than an airport with commercial airline service, however.
 
(removed to not be a jerk)


Someone needs to hold the NTSB responsible for doing this important job. Its bad enough that to even suggest they may not be the best organization ever means you're a conspiracy theorist.
 
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steingar said:
I've never seen lit X's on a runway, just painted on. They would be invisible at night. If the briefer didn't mention it there is no way the pilot could have known. Not surprised the NTSB found it pilot error, no sense messing with their usual formula.
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Seven Springs nearby had 4 WHITE saw horses decoratively placed in a tasteful X patttern at each end of the runway.

It's unlit, and not very busy place, but I planned to use it for engine out event with a student one day.

Before pulling power, I looked down and saw the sawhorses -- barely.

I'd done a NOTAM check -- nada on 7SP.
 
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Personally, I think if a flying saucer came down from space and blasted an aircraft right in front of a thousand onlookers the NTSB would still blame the pilot of the aircraft. The saucer's laser would be a contributing factor.
 
steingar said:
I've never seen lit X's on a runway, just painted on. They would be invisible at night. If the briefer didn't mention it there is no way the pilot could have known. Not surprised the NTSB found it pilot error, no sense messing with their usual formula.
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I've seen a lot of raised flashing Xs during runway work.
The painted on Xs I've seen were for permanantly closed runways.
 
Was it a NOTAM available through the National NOTAM Office during the normal process of flight planning or was it published? How long had the runway been closed?

Runway 3/21 at KERV is closed indefinitely. There used to be a NOTAM available through Flight Service during a briefing. Now, it's only published.
 
All: I don't have a copy of the FARs handy, so I can't quote chapter and verse but isn't it incumbent on the pilot to obtain ALL available information about a flight before launch? This would presumably include checking for NOTAMs at the destination airport. I did not see this point covered anywhere. DSBRANTJR.
 
dsbrantjr said:
All: I don't have a copy of the FARs handy, so I can't quote chapter and verse but isn't it incumbent on the pilot to obtain ALL available information about a flight before launch? This would presumably include checking for NOTAMs at the destination airport. I did not see this point covered anywhere. DSBRANTJR.
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AIM 5-1-3
 
KennyFlys said:
Was it a NOTAM available through the National NOTAM Office during the normal process of flight planning or was it published? How long had the runway been closed?

Runway 3/21 at KERV is closed indefinitely. There used to be a NOTAM available through Flight Service during a briefing. Now, it's only published.
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I agree that if the NOTAM was published the pilot shouldn't expect to get it from AFSS and should have been held accountable for the lack of information. Regardless, if the runway was closed, either temporarily or UFN, the airport should have disabled the PCL to the runway, and failure to do so was at the very least a contributing factor.

Remember that a landing light isn't even required equipment unless the plane is operated for hire. And, depending on the intensity of the lights that were purportedly midfield, they may have been sufficient for taxiing aircraft, but totally inadequate for aerial observation. If they were positioned so the beam of light was parallel to the surface, the pilot may have been unable to even discern them until on the ground, at which point it may have been too late.
 
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SkyHog said:
Btw I'm not trying to be Mr. Grammar Nazi, but this is such an important issue, I think you should correct the typos in the following paragraph:



Someone needs to hold the NTSB responsible for doing this important job. Its bad enough that to even suggest they may not be the best organization ever means you're a conspiracy theorist.
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Thank you.
 
GigG601XL said:
You seem to be more upset with the way the NTSB report is worded than anything else.
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The wording of the report is really all we have to go on, but more to the issue at hand, I am concerned that no attempt has been made by an authority to answer the questions raised. In other words, to find out if and how the system failed. I have no comment on your litigation assertions.
 
gprellwitz said:
I agree that if the NOTAM was published the pilot shouldn't expect to get it from AFSS and should have been held accountable for the lack of information. Regardless, if the runway was closed, either temporarily or UFN, the airport should have disabled the PCL to the runway, and failure to do so was at the very least a contributing factor.
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I agree... "If..."

What the report leaves out is the status of the NOTAM at the time of the incident. To me, that would seem to be a substantial piece of evidence for a factual report.

When I've suspected possible issues, I've asked them to check published NOTAMS. I suppose you can ask every time. I wonder how often anyone does ask about those published?
 
steingar said:
I've never seen lit X's on a runway...
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You should come here to SBY when one of the runways is closed. They have huge X's like 15 feet tall standing up at about a 45 degree angle with a few dozen light bulbs lighting them up at night -- totally unmissable either on overflight or on final.
 
gprellwitz said:
Arnold,
What is your relationship to this incident, if any?
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NONE.

As I said in the introduction to my discussion it seems the NTSB left many stones unturned. We all know that safety is a chain of events. Here there was clear safety break down, but no analysis of why it happened. Inquiring mind wants to know.
 
dsbrantjr said:
All: I don't have a copy of the FARs handy, so I can't quote chapter and verse but isn't it incumbent on the pilot to obtain ALL available information about a flight before launch? This would presumably include checking for NOTAMs at the destination airport. I did not see this point covered anywhere. DSBRANTJR.
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Don,

The pilot *DID* call FSS and check for NOTAMs, and FSS simply did not give him that one. I'd say he did his due diligence.
 
Ron Levy said:
You should come here to SBY when one of the runways is closed. They have huge X's like 15 feet tall standing up at about a 45 degree angle with a few dozen light bulbs lighting them up at night -- totally unmissable either on overflight or on final.
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Same thing at DTW.
 
All: Thanks Kent et al: Same at 47N when they resurfaced the runway: They had huge X's like 15 -20 feet tall standing up at about a 45 degree angle with a few dozen light bulbs lighting them up at night -- totally unmissable either on overflight or on final. I noticed them when I drove by on the roadway which is at least 15 feet below the runway, during the day in my auto.
 
alaskaflyer said:
:confused::skeptical::drama::dunno:
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I'm not sure but I think the purpose of your post was to ask why I said that. The original post stated:

"I think if the aircraft owner were to sue that he would probably win against both the FSS and probably the airport."

I suppose if one did not read the original post this would have been missed. In the future I will quote more completely so people who do not want to go back and read the original post will have no need to and won't be confused by my responses. Thank you for pointing this out to me.
 
Arnold said:
I'm not sure but I think the purpose of your post was to ask why I said that. The original post stated:

"I think if the aircraft owner were to sue that he would probably win against both the FSS and probably the airport."

I suppose if one did not read the original post this would have been missed. In the future I will quote more completely so people who do not want to go back and read the original post will have no need to and won't be confused by my responses. Thank you for pointing this out to me.
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Now I'm confused. Do you really not have any relation to this crash (ie, it wasn't a friend of yours, or anything close to that)? It kinda seems like ya do now...
 
Ron Levy said:
You should come here to SBY when one of the runways is closed. They have huge X's like 15 feet tall standing up at about a 45 degree angle with a few dozen light bulbs lighting them up at night -- totally unmissable either on overflight or on final.
Click to expand...

Same deal most of last year at OLM while they were removing the hump in the runway. No way to miss those illuminated Xs.
 
steingar said:
Now why would I want to go hither and yon to look at closed runways? :rofl:
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Not just closed runways, the X used to close the runway. People travel the world to look at things like lighthouses and stuff (even publish books with pictures of lighthouses) - why shouldn't runway Xs be the same?:smilewinkgrin::D
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Not just closed runways, the X used to close the runway. People travel the world to look at things like lighthouses and stuff (even publish books with pictures of lighthouses) - why shouldn't runway Xs be the same?:smilewinkgrin::D
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As much as I like most things aviation related, I think I'd pass on that coffee table book.
 
SkyHog said:
Now I'm confused. Do you really not have any relation to this crash (ie, it wasn't a friend of yours, or anything close to that)? It kinda seems like ya do now...
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I think it might help you to view the posts in threaded mode, if you do so then this is what you would find:
-------------Summary of Posts in this thread ---------------------------
Arnold - initial post
Bitz - response
GigG601XL - Asserting that I am more upset about the language used than the facts and making a statement about the likely success of litigation
Arnold - Responding to the Assertion regarding wording, acknowledging GigG601XL comment about litigation and stating I would not comment.
alaskaflyer - an out of context quote and a bunch of emoticons.
Arnold - Explaining that the part alaska flyer quoted was in reference to GigG601XL post.
SkyHog - Expressing confusion and asking if I have any connection to the accident.
-----------------------------------------------
I hope this helps to clarify the timeline, but since my prior post on the subject was apparently insufficient, allow me to elaborate.

NO I do not have any connection to the accident, I do not represent any of the parties involved. I have not even a remote connection to the accident, but to put your mind at ease, and because it brings back some happy memories of a great summer spent flying, I will outline all of my prior interaction with the possibly related people, places and things. If you think of others let me know and I'll tell you if there is any connection.

I used to fly to Lake Placid while I was time building for my commercial ticket. I would stop in BUF and pick up my cousin and we would do lunch in Lake Placid. Then I would drop her off in BUF and I would return to 6B6. It was a very enjoyable way to build hours and I made the trip perhaps 3 times during the summer of 1979 (I think it could have been 78) and I have not been back since. I flew a rented TR-2 (only paid $19.20 per hour wet). I state now that I have never flown the accident aircraft, in fact, of my more than 7000 hrs flight time my total C-310 time is about 0.6 hrs. I do not know the pilot or the passenger. I have not been to Lake Placid in about 30 years. I do not know who the insurance company is but I'm not a customer of theirs nor are they a client of mine. (Deleted erroneous reference to AR). I have been to ALO many times, but only in my capacity as a flight crew member and except to go to the hotel and for dinner I have never left the airline side of the airport. I do not recall ever meeting a GA pilot while I was there, but I may have. The last time I was in the relevant ARTCC airspace was my daughter's graduation from U. Michigan when I flew a Mooney Ovation (it lives in the BOS area and has had the same owner for its entire existence and that person, to the best of my knowledge, has no interest in the accident) from LOM to Ann Arbor for the festivities and that was in 2006. President Clinton spoke at the Commencement but I have never met him nor have I engaged in any sort of conspiracy with regard to the airport, aircraft, air traffic control facility and controllers, or airport.

I don't know what else you think might be my connection or why my somewhat more succinct answer to the same question asked by another board member was insufficient. I'll refresh your memory I answered

"NONE."

My SOLE INTEREST in this matter arises from my noticing the blurb on AvWeb and then going to the NTSB web site and getting the full report. I did this because I thought it odd that the NTSB blamed the pilot. I analyzed the report (such as it was), and I posted that analysis on my web site and posted a link on this board because I thought it would be of interest to the community.

As you noted in one of your earlier posts most people will not criticize the NTSB, and generally I do not, but I think they merit criticism in this mater.
 
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Arnold, my take on your OP was that you felt the pilot had done as much as any of us could/would have done in the same circumstance yet was unable to learn the runway was closed before colliding with a "ditch" dug across the runway (and I pretty much agree with that). You also obviously (to me) seemed to feel that the NTSB could/should have done a more accurate and complete assessment of the accident's cause and while a sort of agree with that, IME they rarely bother with a truly adequate investigation and report in these types of incidents. IOW the "deficiency" is not unusual.

I would also add that your post did get me to consider that it would be wise to check on runway conditions for any non-towered airport I might land at during darkness.

Arnold said:
My SOLE INTEREST in this matter arises from my noticing the blurb on AvWeb and then going to the NTSB web site and getting the full report. I did this because I thought it odd that the NTSB blamed the pilot. I analyzed the report (such as it was), and I posted that analysis on my web site and posted a link on this board because I thought it would be of interest to the community.

As you noted in one of your earlier posts most people will not criticize the NTSB, and generally I do not, but I think they merit criticism in this mater.
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jmaynard said:
Larger airports have large X-shaped lighted signs on trailers they put at the threshold of closed runways. I've never seen one at anything than an airport with commercial airline service, however.
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I have seen them at Orlando Executive. And not on trailers, but just standing on the runway. I don't know if they were powered by the runway lighting system or if there was a separate power cart nearby. Somewhere I have a photo ...
 
Arnold said:
As you noted in one of your earlier posts most people will not criticize the NTSB, and generally I do not, but I think they merit criticism in this mater.
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This is where the confusion on my part lies. I've been reading NTSB reports since I was about 8 years old and I don't see where this one is in any way worse than the average for an accident of this type.
 
GigG601XL said:
This is where the confusion on my part lies. I've been reading NTSB reports since I was about 8 years old and I don't see where this one is in any way worse than the average for an accident of this type.
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I dunno - Usually with this sort of thing you see "The pilot did not obtain a pre-flight briefing."

This guy did everything right and still got burned, and they blamed it on him rather than the fact that either the airport manager didn't issue a proper NOTAM, or FSS omitted it during the briefing. Neither case is the pilot's fault, yet the NTSB faults the pilot.

Most of the time, when the NTSB blames an accident on pilot error, I agree that there was *something* the pilot could have done. This case, I think they're out of line in blaming the pilot.
 
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