Deferment/Felony

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czar1974

Filing Flight Plan
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czar1974
I've been looking through the boards but all I see are examples of either drug-related or violent felonies. Mine is neither.

I went for my Class 3 Student medical today and was deferred for the felony conviction. I have a Federal conviction for bank fraud in 1997. I was ordered to have 4 years of supervised probation and to make restitution. I did all that without incident.

Since then, I completed a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science, and have been in my career for over ten years now.

What are your opinions on the likelihood that I will be denied the right to obtain my Private Pilot's license?

Thanks for your time.

Concerned in TN
 
Without a valid medical/student pilot certificate, you wouldn't be able to fly solo, which is one of the requirements for getting your PPL.
 
Well, this is outside the purview of Dr Bruce (maybe?) but are you a member of AOPA? If so, contact them for a preliminary, cursory legal opinion. Then you may need to find a real aviation attorney for a defendable opinion (and probably pay for 30 min of time). Again, if you're an AOPA member, they can point you to someone in your area that handles this type of issue.
 
czar1974 said:
I've been looking through the boards but all I see are examples of either drug-related or violent felonies. Mine is neither.

I went for my Class 3 Student medical today and was deferred for the felony conviction. I have a Federal conviction for bank fraud in 1997. I was ordered to have 4 years of supervised probation and to make restitution. I did all that without incident.

Since then, I completed a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science, and have been in my career for over ten years now.

What are your opinions on the likelihood that I will be denied the right to obtain my Private Pilot's license?

Thanks for your time.

Concerned in TN
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Take a look here:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=540839&postcount=33
 
A brief reading of Dr B's original posting indicates the 10 year limit has passed, assuming the 10 years began in 2001 after the 4 yrs probation. The degree and professional employment history would go to character, but as we all know, TSA cares not one whit about character.

I'd suggest you contact the FAA office that deferred the medical. Ask them what information/records/affidavits you need to provide. Go find an aviation lawyer - remember AOPA?

On the other hand if the AME did it based entirely on the felony checkbox then go find an aviation lawyer.
 
According to the list it is in grouped in the same 10 year category. Join and call AOPA to get advice and start getting your paperwork together. Expect 60 days to hear anything back from the FAA, so at least anticipate what they will say and have your response queued up.

(26) Felony involving --
(i) Willful destruction of property;
(ii) Importation or manufacture of a controlled substance;
(iii) Burglary;
(iv) Theft;
(v) Dishonesty, fraud, or misrepresentation;

 
gismo said:
Take a look here:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=540839&postcount=33
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But what was quoted in that post came from this regulation which has to do with air carriers and commercial operators. I don't see how that would apply to a private pilot, not that there might be some other reg.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title49-vol9/xml/CFR-2010-title49-vol9-sec1544-229.xml

Context: Title 49 - Transportation. Subtitle B - Other Regulations Relating to Transportation (Continued). CHAPTER XII - TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY. SUBCHAPTER C - CIVIL AVIATION SECURITY. PART 1544 - AIRCRAFT OPERATOR SECURITY: AIR CARRIERS AND COMMERCIAL OPERATORS. Subpart C - Operations.

>snip<

§ 1544.229 Fingerprint-based criminal history records checks (CHRC): Unescorted access authority, authority to perform screening functions, and authority to perform checked baggage or cargo functions.
This section applies to each aircraft operator operating under a full program, a private charter program, or a full all-cargo program.
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Waiting for someone to say "a pilot license is a privilege, not a right..."

Where's the smilie for "trolling"? :D
 
czar1974 said:
What are your opinions on the likelihood that I will be denied the right to obtain my Private Pilot's license?
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Nobody has a "right to obtain [a] Private Pilot's license." It is a privilege earned by meeting certain requirements. If you do not meet those requirements, you do not get the license. One of those requirements involves whether or not you can be expected to use your flying privileges safety and legally, and a felony conviction creates doubt in the FAA's governmental mind about that. The FAA does not delegate to AME's the authority to make the decision in such cases, so approval of your medical is deferred to FAA AeroMedical in Oklahoma City.

That said, Bruce will no doubt be along to answer the question of the likelihood that you will be issued a medical certificate given your criminal record.
 
Everskyward said:
But what was quoted in that post came from this regulation which has to do with air carriers and commercial operators. I don't see how that would apply to a private pilot, not that there might be some other reg.
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I will readily admit that I'm no expert in these matters but Bruce posted that response to a query from someone who's logged 10-15 hours of dual instruction and wanted to know if it was likely he'd be able to get a pilot license (and required medical). Given Dr Chien's high level of expertise in similar matters I'm willing to assume that the rule he posted is applicable to that situation.
 
murphey said:
A brief reading of Dr B's original posting indicates the 10 year limit has passed, assuming the 10 years began in 2001 after the 4 yrs probation. The degree and professional employment history would go to character, but as we all know, TSA cares not one whit about character.

I'd suggest you contact the FAA office that deferred the medical. Ask them what information/records/affidavits you need to provide. Go find an aviation lawyer - remember AOPA?

On the other hand if the AME did it based entirely on the felony checkbox then go find an aviation lawyer.
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Just guessing but I'd expect that the 10 year clock starts when the conviction occurs (or maybe even back to the offense), not when the sentence is completed. Either way it sounds like the OP is well beyond the 10 year denial window.
 
murphey said:
I'd suggest you contact the FAA office that deferred the medical.
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No FAA office defers a medical application. That's done by the AME when the information on the application includes things which the FAA feels require further review by higher authority than an indivicual AME.

Ask them what information/records/affidavits you need to provide. Go find an aviation lawyer - remember AOPA?
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It's a long way from being a legal issue. For now, it's a medical administration issue. The application is sent by the AME to AeroMedical in OKC for further review. Those folks will then tell the applicant whether the certificate is being issued, or whether more information is required, or whether the application is being denied. In the first case, it's done. In the second, you do what they said and submit the additional information. Only in the third case would legal advice be appropriate or necessary.

On the other hand if the AME did it based entirely on the felony checkbox then go find an aviation lawyer.
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...who will tell you that the AME was doing exactly what s/he is supposed to do, and to wait until you hear back from AeroMedical as to issuance, more information needed, or denial. You can do that if you want, but it's a waste of your money at this point.
 
Ron Levy said:
Nobody has a "right to obtain [a] Private Pilot's license." It is a privilege earned by meeting certain requirements.
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"Privilege" is a word that tyrants (petty or otherwise) use when they want to deny you your rights.

If you do not meet those requirements, you do not get the license.
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And if you do meet those requirements, a government "of the people, by the people, for the people" would recognize that you have a right to get the license, and not throw around the word "privilege" as if they were King George.

One of those requirements involves whether or not you can be expected to use your flying privileges safety and legally, and a felony conviction creates doubt in the FAA's governmental mind about that. The FAA does not delegate to AME's the authority to make the decision in such cases, so approval of your medical is deferred to FAA AeroMedical in Oklahoma City.
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If it were truly a "privilege," then it wouldn't matter whether you met those requirements or not; the license could be granted or denied solely at the whim of the government.
 
Palmpilot said:
"Privilege" is a word that tyrants (petty or otherwise) use when they want to deny you your rights.



And if you do meet those requirements, a government "of the people, by the people, for the people" would recognize that you have a right to get the license, and not throw around the word "privilege" as if they were King George.



If it were truly a "privilege," then it wouldn't matter whether you met those requirements or not; the license could be granted or denied solely at the whim of the government.
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You can believe all that if you want, but it's contrary to our generally accepted system of government. Rights are those things which need not be earned. Priviliges are those things which must be earned. In any event, the system is what it is, and if you want to be allowed to pilot a plane, there are clearly established requirements you must meet, and some of them are medical. Of those, some are behaviorally based. This is one of them.
 
Ron Levy said:
Nobody has a "right to obtain [a] Private Pilot's license." It is a privilege earned by meeting certain requirements. If you do not meet those requirements, you do not get the license. One of those requirements involves whether or not you can be expected to use your flying privileges safety and legally, and a felony conviction creates doubt in the FAA's governmental mind about that. The FAA does not delegate to AME's the authority to make the decision in such cases, so approval of your medical is deferred to FAA AeroMedical in Oklahoma City.

That said, Bruce will no doubt be along to answer the question of the likelihood that you will be issued a medical certificate given your criminal record.
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Ok, we can play the semantics gave of right v privilege all day long. I'm not even starting in on that part of it. I simply wanted to know what the collective 'you' thought would occur.

If I am denied, then I'll begin the rant on how I've continued to be punished. Argh.

I certainly appreciate the valuable information you have posted. Oh, and yes, I joined AOPA about ten days ago.
 
Ron Levy said:
You can believe all that if you want, but it's contrary to our generally accepted system of government. Rights are those things which need not be earned. Priviliges are those things which must be earned.
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I don't dispute that "It's a privilege, not a right" is generally accepted. I'm saying that we, as a free people, if we want to remain free, ought to stop generally accepting that.

In any event, the system is what it is, and if you want to be allowed to pilot a plane, there are clearly established requirements you must meet, and some of them are medical. Of those, some are behaviorally based. This is one of them.
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I don't dispute that. I just don't think it's necessary to resort to calling things privileges in order to support the existence of reasonable requirements, and I think it's dangerous for the public and government officials to think in those terms, because it conditions us to think like subjects.

We should have the right to have the decision made according to laws and regulations that have been established pursuant to the Constitution. Calling it a privilege threatens that right IMO, because it leads to regulations and/or laws like the one that makes it sound like the FAA Administrator can deny a certificate arbitrarily.
 
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Ron Levy said:
No FAA office defers a medical application. That's done by the AME when the information on the application includes things which the FAA feels require further review by higher authority than an indivicual AME.
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Actually the AME called Oklahoma City to see what to do. They told him to defer it and that they would contact me. I can only imagine how long that will take.

Ron Levy said:
It's a long way from being a legal issue. For now, it's a medical administration issue. The application is sent by the AME to AeroMedical in OKC for further review. Those folks will then tell the applicant whether the certificate is being issued, or whether more information is required, or whether the application is being denied. In the first case, it's done. In the second, you do what they said and submit the additional information. Only in the third case would legal advice be appropriate or necessary.

...who will tell you that the AME was doing exactly what s/he is supposed to do, and to wait until you hear back from AeroMedical as to issuance, more information needed, or denial. You can do that if you want, but it's a waste of your money at this point.
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My understanding is that they'll want to see documentation related to the conviction and the letter which released me from probation.

I'm HOPING that this is just a formality ... I've logged 8.9 hours and now I don't know what to do. I was aggressively pursuing this. Now I don't know whether to stop or just keep going and hope for the best. I'm also hoping that since it was a non-violent, non-sexual, and non-drug-related crime - that I'll be approved eventually.
 
Oh, and the two previous "Unregistered Guest" posts were indeed me. I forgot to login.
 
This thread has gone down a different path. I simply want to know what you think my chances are of getting approved finally based on the information I have provided. The answer to that will help me determine whether or not I should keep up my instruction or wait.

I hate to wait 3-4 months, be approved, then forget everything I've learned in the last 16 days. Yes, 8.9 hours in the last 16 days. I've been serious about this. I'm 38 and wanted to fly all my life.

However, if I'm going to be denied, there is no use and I'll never be allowed to fly alone. I should not waste thousands of dollars on something I'll ultimately not be allowed to do.

I'm in a dilemma. :-(
 
If it helps, I'm 38 and am at 38 hours since August 10. Hang in there and fly once a week and you won't be rusty. There is a lot you can do that isn't solo!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
czar1974 said:
This thread has gone down a different path. I simply want to know what you think my chances are of getting approved finally based on the information I have provided. The answer to that will help me determine whether or not I should keep up my instruction or wait.

I hate to wait 3-4 months, be approved, then forget everything I've learned in the last 16 days. Yes, 8.9 hours in the last 16 days. I've been serious about this. I'm 38 and wanted to fly all my life.

However, if I'm going to be denied, there is no use and I'll never be allowed to fly alone. I should not waste thousands of dollars on something I'll ultimately not be allowed to do.

I'm in a dilemma. :-(
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My understanding is that flying gliders does not require a medical certificate, and you can fly ultralights without any kind of certificate, so you wouldn't necessarily be completely grounded.
 
Palmpilot said:
My understanding is that flying gliders does not require a medical certificate, and you can fly ultralights without any kind of certificate, so you wouldn't necessarily be completely grounded.
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Is it too late for even that? Once its denied, doesnt that take away the ability to fly gliders without a medical certificiate (assuming the drivers license medical thing)?
 
Let's let the ultralight thing go, please. I have no interest (at this time). I'm trying to focus on the task at-hand. ;-)
 
Dear concerned, I have had a RASH of folks who committed securities fraud in the past, pinging me via email. I see leaving my assets with Merrill in the late 90s was probably an error.....

If you are indeed the person who emailed me about a week, back, it is EXACTLY as I answered. It has been >10 years and it should, after the conviction, probation and restitution papers and an updated FBI search has been done (to show you have NOT done this again), should result in issuance.

BTW YOU need to provide FAA medical with all of the above.....Start gathering the papers now, order up the FBI search; I can tell you where to ship them....or you can wait 115 days for the demand letter, requiring you to send them in.
 
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No, it wasn't securities fraud. I was employed at a bank. And no, I did not contact you earlier. I only discovered this website today after I got home from my medical.

And while I certainly appreciate the time in responding to my post, your tone wasn't very pleasant. And yes, someone pointed me to your other thread - but my situation was a little different, imo.

And yes, I would appreciate the information on where to send whatever is needed. I'm not sure of what exactly they want to see, if it needs to be certified from the court or if my copies are sufficient.

I do appreciate your time, but please rest assured I have neither previously contacted you or posted on this website before. As a matter of fact, this website is the first place I have posted.

Thanks again.
 
Czar, you understand of course that I have no idea who is who on such a board.

But seriously, you need to gather everything I just listed and get it into OKC....so that after an extended period of time (now 115 days avg) they will be issuing you, not sending you the list, only to require another 115 day turnaround.

If your AME wants to go to bat for you, he can shorten the time by a WHOLE MESS. But he needs to WANT to help you.

Sorry about the "tone" but I don't have a lot of sympathy for lying, esp. since in the past I was damaged a bit by a fraudulent brokerage house (not named in my prior post. But I do think brokers thinking their customers are "Marks" is pretty common). Everyone here knows I don't have much tolerance for guys who lie...'cause I can't help them. Fraud, after all, is just a financial lie. This past month I have gotten no fewer than FIVE inquires about felony convictions and medicals. money practices. I can't tell who is who, and most posters want it that way (!)

The Aeromedicine division is interested in character disorders (which are diagnosable by a properly trained psychiatrist) of which such a conviction may be a symptom. But the KEY is being able to show through a negative, current, FBI search, that you have not had a recurrence. 10 years is pretty reasonable for excluding, "Personality disorder, multiple acts".
 
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Yeah, I don't want anyone knowing who I am either. I'll be creating a "real" account for using this forum later. I've enjoyed reading the threads.

Ok, I will gather all of my docs.

One last thing: How can my AME "go to bat" for me? He's just a Dr, yes? I don't understand what he has to do with a legal situation. My medical itself was just fine in terms of my health, eyesight, etc.
 
czar1974 said:
Yeah, I don't want anyone knowing who I am either. I'll be creating a "real" account for using this forum later. I've enjoyed reading the threads.

Ok, I will gather all of my docs.

One last thing: How can my AME "go to bat" for me? He's just a Dr, yes? I don't understand what he has to do with a legal situation. My medical itself was just fine in terms of my health, eyesight, etc.
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I edited my post while your wrote this. Read the last paragraph.
 
Oh, one more "last thing". I'm looking at the FAA's website, but am unsure as to which exact address I should use and to which department the information should be sent. I assume that I should also include the number of my Form 8500.
 
czar1974 said:
Ultralights. Argh. :-(
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Very limiting, that's for sure. Fortunately, it sounds like it's only a matter of time and paperwork before you get your certificate.
 
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ajstoner21 said:
Is it too late for even that? Once its denied, doesnt that take away the ability to fly gliders without a medical certificiate (assuming the drivers license medical thing)?
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If I understand the czars postings, he wasnt' denied the medical. The decision has been deferred. Welcome to Government Terminology.
 
murphey said:
[B said:
ajstoner21[/B]]Is it too late for even that? Once its denied, doesnt that take away the ability to fly gliders without a medical certificiate (assuming the drivers license medical thing)?
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If I understand the czars postings, he wasnt' denied the medical. The decision has been deferred. Welcome to Government Terminology.
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And on top of that, I believe that ultralights and gliders (and balloons, IIRC) don't require a medical at all, and having been denied wouldn't disqualify one from going that route. However, as he stressed, Czar isn't interested in ultralights in any case, so it's a moot point, and I'll be mute about it! :)
 
murphey said:
If I understand the czars postings, he wasnt' denied the medical. The decision has been deferred. Welcome to Government Terminology.
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That's just a delaying thing. The deferral will result in either an issuance (perhaps special) or a denial in the long run. It's not an indefinite limbo state (though it may seem like it at times).
 
gprellwitz said:
And on top of that, I believe that ultralights and gliders (and balloons, IIRC) don't require a medical at all, and having been denied wouldn't disqualify one from going that route. However, as he stressed, Czar isn't interested in ultralights in any case, so it's a moot point, and I'll be mute about it! :)
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you are correct Grant re: medicals and gliders.
 
Aeromedical Certification Division
PO Box 26200
Oklahoma City, OK 73125

Include name and DOB on every page.
 
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