Declining Pilot Population

Most of the people I'm thinking of only ride in bizjets to company destinations on the company dime. Of course we sometimes joke around about getting lost and ending up in a more recreational destination (than Addison, for example.) :D

To turn the question around, if some of you posting here had the opportunity to ride on a bizjet for business reasons paid for by someone else would you express any interest or ask the pilots questions?

Sure. "Mind if sit in the left seat and make airplane noises while you are preflighting?"
 
I would ask if we have a tailwind, what's on the catering tray, if they upgraded my rental car and if they know of any good places for lunch. That's what pax always asked me, so I assume those are the questions I'm supposed to ask.
Most of the people I'm thinking of only ride in bizjets to company destinations on the company dime. Of course we sometimes joke around about getting lost and ending up in a more recreational destination (than Addison, for example.) :D

To turn the question around, if some of you posting here had the opportunity to ride on a bizjet for business reasons paid for by someone else would you express any interest or ask the pilots questions?
 
I'm one of the one's who has essentially quit flying. Here's why specifically:

1. Rentals. I hate them - completely totally repulsed by them. Too many rules. Too much expense. Too much hassle. Never knowing if you're getting into an airplane or a death trap. (Can't fly at night, can't land on shorter runways, can't fly in 10 mile visibility because it's not safe - I got burned at the stake for flying in stable weather 6-7 mile visibility once and that was just an hour in the pattern, can't land on grass/dirt, can't do this, can't do that, not scheduled adequately in advance - I'm a fully licensed PP so STFU and let me fly the plane when it's sitting there on the ramp costing you money to not have it used, but noooo, gotta put unrealistic rules in the way)
2. I'm likely to get shot down or arrested or both. I grew up flying when you could get in and go without checking for popup TFR's every 2 minutes. It is no longer a free country to go flying in.
3. Expense. I'm not rich like the rest of you. Rentals are spendy. Owning is prohibitivey spendy. Landing and parking fees are just offensive. I don't have land (yet) for a private airport. Flying less than 10 hours a year is not enough to enjoy it for what it really is about.
4. Flying is fun however the destinations are just airplane parking lots unless you intend to rent a car or take a cab somewhere far away from the airport. It almost defeats the purpose of going anywhere. What is there to do at an airport or within walking distance of a typical GA airport?

I come from a flying family and worked on the farm and cut grass and worked on vehicles to afford flying. It's not the same as it use to be. Flying just simply became too much expense and hassle and wasn't any fun anymore.

When I can get some land that will support a short grass runway and build my own experimental, then I'll start flying again. Until then it will involve winning the lottery or something equally unrealistic like that.
 
Depends on tolerance for Ramen. :D

Per some lyrics of one of my favorite Rush songs, Half the World:

Half the world waits
While half gets on with it anyway
...
Half the world thinks
While half the world does
...


Rush is awesome.

Thanks for mentioning Rush!
 
...
pilots are unfriendly dbags. You can prove it to yourself easy enough, leave the aopa hat, watch, a2 jacket at home and walk around an airport where no one knows you are a pilot. Note the friendly reception.

{{sorry, I can't resist... :redface: }}

I admit that I have seen this reaction alot. To me? Not so much. I may be 65, but I'm still a blond, so I get positive attention in any FBO (or FAAST) that I am in. But others, not so much.

My medical may be current but my last BFR expired in 2007. My present income doesn't cover necessities, never mind providing disposable. My heart is in the quest, but my purse/wallet are not. Maybe someday I can return; but not at the present. :sad:
 
I just had an ephiny!

No really, stay with me...


Cost is huge. Okay. We all get that. But LOT's of people have more than enough to do it but don't. My theory is that by the time they get to the point in life where they can afford it they have already tied up their assets in boats and cars and European vacations or whatever.

So, we need to hook 'em young. Who's going to grow up to be financially able? Who knows? You could guess though...kids of rich folks.

I say we target the hell out of that demographic. Give free rides and let them fly. Heck, give them a brief and let them take off too! Get them hooked when they're young and impressionable and odds are that later when they are earning $300K plus and thinking about a yacht a little glimmer of a fond memory will spark and they will get their PPL and IR instead.

So, there it is. Target rich kids. Easy Peasy.




edit to add one teeny tiny lower case 'm'. Can you guess which one???
 
No, but while you were at it you should have changed a lower case "i" to an "a." Can you guess which one?
 
4. Flying is fun however the destinations are just airplane parking lots unless you intend to rent a car or take a cab somewhere far away from the airport. It almost defeats the purpose of going anywhere. What is there to do at an airport or within walking distance of a typical GA airport?

Perhaps this is why the number of rotor-wing only pilots has doubled in the last ten years. Fixed wing aircraft generally only get you from one airfield to another airfield.
 
I would ask if we have a tailwind
That's a big one, followed by "What time are we going to get there?"

Number one question about the airplane comes when they get off and the fan is spinning down. "Is is supposed to sound like that? Maybe you should check the bearings." I think a lot of them are engineers. :D

It does make a weird howling clicking noise...
 
Hate to poop on the party but there is nothing to be done about the declining numbers. They will continue to decline for the foreseeable future.

Why would someone want to spend upwards of $10k to earn their ticket to continue to fly around in 40-50 year old technology when they can spend that same amount on something shiny and new? There is no rushing cause to earn your ticket.
 
Perhaps this is why the number of rotor-wing only pilots has doubled in the last ten years. Fixed wing aircraft generally only get you from one airfield to another airfield.

Funny you should say that. Denver Sheriff's helo entering the pattern, and a Lifeguard helo exiting it at APA, as I munch on my lunch nearby -- after spending $110 on a 3rd Class Medical. :(

Oh well. It works out to less than $2 a month this time. Next one won't quite be such a good deal. ;)
 
Assume two guys in the same neighborhood have 50k cash plus some financing tied up in toys. One guy has a plane at the airport, the other has a house, boat, jet-skis and fishing poles at the lake. What are the probabilities of using each package on a given weekend? How much hassle is involved in each package?
How many friends can participate in a trip? What are the odds on total cancellation of the weekend activities?
 
Perhaps this is why the number of rotor-wing only pilots has doubled in the last ten years. Fixed wing aircraft generally only get you from one airfield to another airfield.

There's got to be more to it than that. Where do the helicopters go? Land at the local amusement park or mall or state park? Nope, that's jail country. Everyone has rules about not landing at non airports nowadays.


One guy has a plane at the airport, the other has a house, boat, jet-skis and fishing poles at the lake. What are the probabilities of using each package on a given weekend? How much hassle is involved in each package?

RV's and boats and motorcycles aren't magical do it right now instant gratification stuff. It appears that way however it's not. There is no 40+ hour training and maintenance requirements however that doesn't mean hop in and go. Drive by a RV storage facility or boat docks sometime. $20 thousand to $1.5 million dollar toys just sitting there rotting in the sun and seldom if ever used for the most part.

RV's are classic examples. You have to get a big truck to pull it or spend more money to be self powered. Then you drive an hour to pick it up from storage and another hour to bring it home. Half a day to load the house into it. A day or two minimum to drive somewhere, a couple days there, a day+ back. Then another few hours to unload and put it away. After a few trips like that for your typical 3 day weekend camper type people, it sits and rots in the storage facilities. The bigger the RV, the more likely it is to just sit unused. If you think flying is expensive, try running the hourly rate for a $100K RV that gets used 4 days a year. That's a 5 digit price tag per day operating cost and even after a decade it's still in the 4 digit per day of use price range...plus maintenance and consumables.

Yes, there are people that use their toys regularly (I'm an exception to the rule that's an exception to the rule and use my equipment constantly - as in every single day without fail) however most people sit at home and don't use their stuff at all because it's too much trouble.
 
Yes, there are people that use their toys regularly (I'm an exception to the rule that's an exception to the rule and use my equipment constantly - as in every single day without fail) however most people sit at home and don't use their stuff at all because it's too much trouble.

Isn't that because you live in your RV?
 
Two things, money and regulations. Money being the biggest one. Flying is fun, but other things are fun too.
 
Flying is fun but it's mostly only fun for the person who is doing it. I think it's more difficult to integrate the family into a flying hobby than some other activities. This would be especially true if the spouse isn't on board.
 
We have all restated the reasons why the population is declining, I was looking for ways to stop it. Ways that are realistic and things that we as GA Pilots can do.

We all look at the barriers and say negative things, but I have only been flying for 3 yrs. When I started thing were pretty much the same as now, and I got my ticket, bought a plane (after being in a club, and non-equity partnership) so it can be done.

As a group we need to quit saying it can't be done, and start trying differs things to try and do it.

The Question is, would you wear something that IDed you in public as an Airmen so that people that might want to explore the idea would know who they could talk too?

Who cares about the expense at that point, let them worry about how to make it happen.

When I was in the club, my bill averaged about $400 a month over the couse of a year and I was flying at least 4 hrs a month.

Are we as idividuals willing to step up and help?

Flav
 
The Question is, would you wear something that IDed you in public as an Airmen so that people that might want to explore the idea would know who they could talk too?

Flav au flav, that's sort of akin to pulling the pilot card out in the single's bar. I do sometimes wear my Angel Flight shirt to the gym though, if that counts.
 
The Question is, would you wear something that IDed you in public as an Airmen so that people that might want to explore the idea would know who they could talk too?

My whole wardrobe consists of aviation-themed t-shirts, polo shirts, and once a week or so, a Civil Air Patrol uniform.

I have rarely been approached while ordering a burrito and asked anything about aviation. The very few times I have, I've exchanged phone numbers with the person and offered them a ride to see if they like it. I've never had a stranger take me up on that offer other than a local radio station personality during a push for a National Women In Aviation campaign a couple of years ago.

Probably doesn't help much that I'm either Home, at the gym, at work, or behind the electronic gate o' TSA terrorist death, at the airport in my hangar.

Most of the huffing and puffing co-middle-aged-fatties at the gym like myself, aren't too interested in extended discussions while sweating to the oldies. Classic Rock oldies from the iPod, that is. ;)

The airport holds an "Open House" every year, but it's designed to get people to the rental places, not out to the individual owner's hangars. Someone REAL bright might think to ask, "Is there an airplane owner I could talk to?" at say, a Colorado Pilot's Association booth, but not all that likely.

Maybe with most folks searching the web these days when they want to do something, a page dedicated to volunteer pilots willing to answer questions locally would be good on the CPA site? Murph? What do you think? Clark?

Also might shame me into getting the podcast going again. :(
 
These threads pop up from time to time on all the boards, and I think I will give my own very pessimistic viewpoint. I think GA is an artifact of US involvement in the air wars of the 20th century, especially WWII.

These wars produced many, many pilots, many of whom fell in love with it and passed it on to their offspring. A decent sized fraction pursued it as a vocation. They were well paid and were seen as glamorous, inspiring many others and passing it onto their offspring.

Since pilots tend to be in the upper echelon of income, the number of children they raised was low, thus fewer in the next generation to carry the torch. Meanwhile, the luster of the professional pilot faded through pay cuts and airline closures. Add to that the diminished number of pilots flying for the military, and the number of people entering the cue has diminished markedly.

Add to that increases in cost and regulation and I think we are seeing the end of GA. Odds are the FAA will clamp down on the amateur built segment, and that will have a chain reaction effect knocking us all out of the sky. Or they'll decide we're just too big a security risk. Or perhaps we'll just fade away from attrition. Either way, I suspect I am among the last generation of recreational pilots. I don't want to say any more as it makes me too sad.
 
Draconian regulations.

Someone once pointed out the only recreational activity more regulated than aviation would be if your hobby was building nuclear reactors in your basement.
 
My whole wardrobe consists of aviation-themed t-shirts, polo shirts, and once a week or so, a Civil Air Patrol uniform.

I have rarely been approached while ordering a burrito and asked anything about aviation. The very few times I have, I've exchanged phone numbers with the person and offered them a ride to see if they like it. I've never had a stranger take me up on that offer other than a local radio station personality during a push for a National Women In Aviation campaign a couple of years ago.

Probably doesn't help much that I'm either Home, at the gym, at work, or behind the electronic gate o' TSA terrorist death, at the airport in my hangar.

Most of the huffing and puffing co-middle-aged-fatties at the gym like myself, aren't too interested in extended discussions while sweating to the oldies. Classic Rock oldies from the iPod, that is. ;)

The airport holds an "Open House" every year, but it's designed to get people to the rental places, not out to the individual owner's hangars. Someone REAL bright might think to ask, "Is there an airplane owner I could talk to?" at say, a Colorado Pilot's Association booth, but not all that likely.

Maybe with most folks searching the web these days when they want to do something, a page dedicated to volunteer pilots willing to answer questions locally would be good on the CPA site? Murph? What do you think? Clark?

Also might shame me into getting the podcast going again. :(

Wearing a pin or something would have to be paired with an advertising campaign by AOPA and the EAA so people would know what it means.

It is just an idea.

Flav
 
Where would most of us wear a pin? No offense, but that idea seems downright strange.

Wearing a pin or something would have to be paired with an advertising campaign by AOPA and the EAA so people would know what it means.

It is just an idea.

Flav
 
So will I.

Money is a huge barrier for many people. However, more than the money you need to have the interest.

Many of the people we fly could easily afford flying lessons and a small airplane but they have no interest. We rarely have people ask us questions about the airplane or about flying in general. They like the airplane but only in the sense that is is comfortable and gets them where they need to go without the hassle of the airlines. It's not my impression that they would want the hassle of flying themselves either.

I saw in a thread today people telling me to fly to a place that is a 2-4 hour drive each way to take glider lessons.

If I could afford to fly there I would have already paid off the debt from my PPL and started my IR.

Money is a HUGE issue for me and the only reason I fly is because I love it. I have a waiting list of things (and don't even fly that much) like car repairs and non urgent root canals RE: money.

So I agree with Mari - interest is much more important than money. If you have enough interest you will find a way.
 
Oh and to re-confirm the dead and dying comments:

I belong to / go to the following:

99s meetings (in the North)
99s meetings (in the South)
EAA meetings (in the Chapter I belong to)
Angel Flight West Meetings (fly outs)
Lots of FAAST WINGS classes on various topics
My home airport association's monthly meetings and activities
Coast Guard aviators (volunteer) monthly meetings

The age of the pilots is - well - old - and what is strange is that there is no "middle". There is me (I'm 33) and then there is them. Where are all the people in their 30's and 40's? All the pilots I see (most of them) are late 50's and up. Some - heck several now - scare me enough hanging out on the ground that I might hesitate to fly with them (and I have met a local CFI now who tries to fly with them for he fears them flying alone and getting hurt).

Note: I do fly with POA and other local groups such as meetup and people are in their 40's. I am also in a class right now with student pilots in their 20's and 30's and am mentoring a local guy in his 20's (took him up, let him fly, introduced him to CFI's and now he is taking lessons). But in general I do see a lot of "oldies".
 
Where are all the people in their 30's and 40's?
Raising their families. :)

I noticed this too. Once I got into my middle-20s the girlfriends I had started to get married and have kids and we had very little in common. Once the kids were grown they started to have fun again!
 
Someone once pointed out the only recreational activity more regulated than aviation would be if your hobby was building nuclear reactors in your basement.

That's only regulated if they catch you. ;)

Although, I guess in some rural areas one could say the same for aviation. ;)
 
Raising their families. :)

I noticed this too. Once I got into my middle-20s the girlfriends I had started to get married and have kids and we had very little in common. Once the kids were grown they started to have fun again!

Agreed. Last night at the monthly meeting I saw an IFR pilot and his mom. I recently safety piloted for him. His mom was SO NICE and a pilot herself. When talking about my newest thing, the Aux Air program, she asked, "why are you spending so much time if you don't even get to fly those planes?"

And I said, "All of my friends are getting married and having kids, they aren't free to go out anymore, and I want to do something with my time that I am proud of - search and rescue etc. seems like it might be fun and satisfying."
 
Dear Kim,

:p

Oh and to re-confirm the dead and dying comments:

I belong to / go to the following:

99s meetings (in the North)
99s meetings (in the South)
EAA meetings (in the Chapter I belong to)
Angel Flight West Meetings (fly outs)
Lots of FAAST WINGS classes on various topics
My home airport association's monthly meetings and activities
Coast Guard aviators (volunteer) monthly meetings

The age of the pilots is - well - old - and what is strange is that there is no "middle". There is me (I'm 33) and then there is them. Where are all the people in their 30's and 40's? All the pilots I see (most of them) are late 50's and up. Some - heck several now - scare me enough hanging out on the ground that I might hesitate to fly with them (and I have met a local CFI now who tries to fly with them for he fears them flying alone and getting hurt).

Note: I do fly with POA and other local groups such as meetup and people are in their 40's. I am also in a class right now with student pilots in their 20's and 30's and am mentoring a local guy in his 20's (took him up, let him fly, introduced him to CFI's and now he is taking lessons). But in general I do see a lot of "oldies".
 
OCCpo.jpg



I bought this for $5 (the other ones get issued to you). However, I will admit that this sweater was worn as I sat in the Coast Guard booth filling out an application when they were doing PR at an airshow. I only planned to wear the pin to aviation related outings such as fly-ins.
 
Here's my take on what could reverse the trend and help foster GA reinvestment:

OWNER-EXPERIMENTAL. That's right. You just alleviated both of the complaints on the owner/operator experience: money and regulations. No longer putting a de facto automotive part like an electric fuel pump, starter or alternator cost you a ridiculous AMU. It would also bring in a lot more value to the 4 seater certified spam cans, which still present a great value over the 4-seater options available in the experimental market. Then you have the incredible safety increase by allowing "non-TSO" avionics into your cockpit, which also doubles in non-economic value by having greater ramp appeal to the demographics who were raised behind LCD screens.

It truly is possible, if the regulatory bodies would allow it. If I could successfully push the idea the maintenance of that aircraft, in terms of parts and inspection costs, would be more in tune with specialty (read low end boats) applications, it would spark a whole lot more interest, especially among people who are itching to get in but the financial horror stories of 30AMU 1930s tractor engines and 2+ AMU entry price for the yearly aviation equivalent of a car's "inspection sticker", keep them out.

I don't expect the boomers to buy into it. They've largely always winced at the idea of going experimental; adjudicated such desires as the negligent corner-cutting attitudes that don't belong in their pseudo-elitist world of competitive regulation-compliance. I still think we can revitalize the neglected spam can fleet waiting their number to the salvage yard, if we go owner-experimental!

As to my personal angle, at almost 31 years old, I recognize I may be in the 'Last of the Comanche' generation to this American Tale, destined to be shot and herded into obsolescence when the numbers dwindle enough to make our plight the postulations of a few remaining die-hards with no political relevance. Maybe so... But I'll refuse to give up the freedom of flight afforded to me by those who fought and died before me. To me, being an American means having the freedom and access to vast expanses of land in my own mechanized contraption. To have the opportunity to "rent" a little patch of land for 80 years and call it my international airport. To take up the young ones and unshackle them from pedestrian compliant living, in ways no kid in Europe or Asia has access to readily. That is the beauty of this freggin' dying dream of a Country. It's the only reason I serve in the military, for not much else about our present day Country's population inspires me to sacrifice so much of my personal existence for what could be construed as anachronistic "moral abstractions". Nothing could be more real than these abstractions, to me.

As such, I'll go off the grid, scud run the rules if I have to. It's the American way in my mind. I'll teach my children to carry on that spirit and to scoff at the culture of blind compliance and snitching that is touted as good for you while it neuters your existence. I digress.

Now, I'm sure the fine folks at the FAA will be inspired by my humble plight and agree owner-experimental is not only great for aviation safety, it's also incredibly American in nature and just the damn right thing to do. Who's got my back?! *crickets crikets* Boy I feel like Jerry Maguire typing this.....
 
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OCCpo.jpg



I bought this for $5 (the other ones get issued to you). However, I will admit that this sweater was worn as I sat in the Coast Guard booth filling out an application when they were doing PR at an airshow. I only planned to wear the pin to aviation related outings such as fly-ins.

Yep that is kind of what I was thinking of.
 
Lapel pins look silly on polo shirts and t-shirts. But if it meant more pilots, hell... I'd wear it.
 
Lapel pins look silly on polo shirts and t-shirts. But if it meant more pilots, hell... I'd wear it.

I will admit that was my very first pin and it did feel silly and I did not know where to pin it on my sweater. The thing is so tiny you can't read what it says anyway.
 
To turn the question around, if some of you posting here had the opportunity to ride on a bizjet for business reasons paid for by someone else would you express any interest or ask the pilots questions?

First time I rode on Timken's corporate jet shuttle between Canton and Hartford, I introduced myself to the pilots when I boarded. They chatted me up quite a bit and were extremely friendly. Once in the air, I spent the entire hour long flight sitting on the bulkhead between them checking out the panel, discussing flying, etc. It was really nice.

A few weeks later, I was at the airport waiting for a standby position on the corporate jet ... I hadn't booked ahead and the plane was full. I saw the pilots and they asked if I was joining them. Told them I was on standby for a seat. They told me not to worry. I spent the takeoff and landing in the lavatory (legal, had a seat belt, but they didn't usually use it). Again spent the flight up front chatting.

Both flights were with our company crew but on our older plane (a Citation, maybe?). When we got to the hanger, they gave me a tour of the "new" plane - it was pretty cool, don't remember what it was. They shared stories of "Mrs. Timken" who had her own company Lear and always flew it her self with one of the corp pilots in the right seat.

Corp pilots strike me as pretty good guys. These guys definitely had an interest/passion in flying and weren't just bus drivers. I'm pretty sure if anyone shows any interest in aviation to one of Timken's corp pilots, they'll get some encouragement.
 
The age of the pilots is - well - old - and what is strange is that there is no "middle". There is me (I'm 33) and then there is them. Where are all the people in their 30's and 40's? All the pilots I see (most of them) are late 50's and up.

According to the FAA's way of counting, about 30% of the private pilots you meet should be under the age of 40. About 45% of the commercial pilots you meet should be under the age of 40. And half or more of either group should be under age 50.

That assumes you meet them at random, which is not going to be the case. One speculation for your observations: Younger pilots are probably busy with work and family and don't get to the kinds of events you get to, while older pilots may be in full or partial retirement and have the spare time to attend such events.

Age stats from the FAA for the last two years (unknown methodology; the number of pilots under 40 might be overstated if current medicals are weighted too heavily):

[EDIT: Added stats from 1999 to get a longer range perspective on any shifts in age.]

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The FAA's stats don't break out all the offshore students who come here and get tickets.. That alone would skew the figures...:yes::dunno:
 
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