Declaring an emergency

[Witmo]

Emergency for fuel smell? No. I've had smoke in the cockpit and didn't declare. Fuel smell is most likey due to a leaking fuel selector valve - that measures about a 0 on scale of 1-10 for an emergency.

I never understood the apparent pride some people have for not declaring an emergency when faced with a potentially serious problem. While a fuel odor in the cockpit is "likely" to be a minor drip from the fuel selector valve, it's not certain. Heck, why even do a preflight? It's likely the airplane is airworthy.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Which R/W - the closest one, probably the reverse of the one I just took off from. Depends on conditions.

The only problem with that is that it is very easy to create an actual accident out of a precautionary landing by rushing things in a perceived emergency.

For a fuel smell, I'd set up for a standard entry downwind to give myself the most stable approach possible - no need to add extra workload to an already questionable situation.

Now, if the situiation changes - ie fire develops or the engine quits, go for whatever you can make.

 

[EdFred]

I never understood the apparent pride some people have for not declaring an emergency when faced with a potentially serious problem. While a fuel odor in the cockpit is "likely" to be a minor drip from the fuel selector valve, it's not certain. Heck, why even do a preflight? It's likely the airplane is airworthy.

I guess having almost died three times my definition of immediate and life threatening danger is quite a bit different than most. If it's not an immediate and life threatening situation it's not an emergency.

 

[SkyHog]

He should have pulled the chute.

 

[cirrusmx]

I had an partial engine failure after take off on 20 and immediately started a climbing turn at Vg to land on 11. I told the tower I was having engine mechanical problems and that I needed to turn around and land immediately. I didn't declare an emergency as I was busy flying the airplane and doing fine with altitude and pretty much had the runway made, but the tower did for me. No big deal and I should have declare the emergency even though everyone ended living happily ever after.
If an emergency is imminent it is always better to declare it even though if it does not end up happening. No one can predict the future. It is always better to be safe than sorry. Better to deal with paper work than with bodies and gore splattered all over the place.

 

[cowman]

Ok I think... in my limited experience... my response would be to land and check it out and not to declare anything.

But, anything you do that might make you safer and doesn't cost anything probably isn't a bad idea.

 

[bflynn]

I am never attaching any kind of camera to any part of my airplane. If anything happens in my aircraft that's actually worth watching there isn't going to be any bloody evidence.

Awww....party pooper.

The only problem with that is that it is very easy to create an actual accident out of a precautionary landing by rushing things in a perceived emergency.

Yup...depends on conditions. If I'm taking off 5L in Raleigh, a 10,000' runway with a 5 kt wind, I have no problem turning around and landing downwind or making a right base to 23L at 7500'. It's better than flying 3 miles to get to a base turn. But it depends on a lot of thing - how strong the smell is , where I am, what the wind is, what airplane I'm flying, etc.

 

[greghughes]

The purpose of declaring an emergency is to get priority to the ground or whatever is appropriate to the specific situation in case you need it. No need to wait until the knife is stuck in you to call 911, and no need to have your hair on fire as a result of the fifth in a chain of events following a fuel leak. If we look at declaring an emergency as a marker of failure by a pilot, we're looking at it wrong. Declaring is a risk management technique, and it provides some additional margin of probability that one can do what one needs to do next.

 

[EdFred]

The purpose of declaring an emergency is to get priority to the ground or whatever is appropriate to the specific situation in case you need it. No need to wait until the knife is stuck in you to call 911, and no need to have your hair on fire as a result of the fifth in a chain of events following a fuel leak. If we look at declaring an emergency as a marker of failure by a pilot, we're looking at it wrong. Declaring is a risk management technique, and it provides some additional margin of probability that one can do what one needs to do next.

Do you go to the emergency room because you have the sniffles too?

 

[docmirror]

Do you go to the emergency room because you have the sniffles too?

I understand the snark element to this post, but a significant population in this country does just exactly that.

 

[Henning]

Would you declare an emergency?
Would you go back to Runway 29 or opt for the closer Runway 24?
Would you stop next to the waiting fire truck?
Would you park next to another aircraft on the ramp?

Questions added since the original post:
Would you put a camera there?
Would you post the video on You Tube?
Would you simply continue the flight?
Does it make a difference whether the aircraft is high-wing or low-wing?
Does it make a difference that the plane is recent or older vintage?
In declaring an emergency, what would you say?
Would it make a difference if there were passengers?

I would have done as he had. 'I have a fuel smell in the cockpit and I'm coming back around" if they ask if I'm declaring, "Affirmative sir I am declaring" and if he asked if I wanted equipment and it was on field equipment I would have told him to go ahead and roll them. Airport firefighters get bored too, I never had one complain about being rolled and then not needed.

Which runway depends on the wind and how the situation was developing. If the situation stayed static and I kept smelling the same level of vapor and/or had a significant wind factor I would probably come back to the preferred runway. If I had gas pouring on my legs, I'm more likely to take the quickest way out of the plane. I would likely stop next to the truck if it was on a ramp, or have them follow me to clear section of the ramp.

High wing, low wing doesn't matter. Since the camera is ahead of the hinge point, I don't have a particular issue with it. You Tube? Meh. Continue the flight with the smell of gas...depends, I have, but I knew why it smelled like gas. If I suddenly smell gas, we're heading for the runway. I think he did the right thing, he may even have waited a bit long after the first recognition of it.

 

[Henning]

Do you go to the emergency room because you have the sniffles too?

That's the American way.

 

[Henning]

The purpose of declaring an emergency is to get priority to the ground or whatever is appropriate to the specific situation in case you need it. No need to wait until the knife is stuck in you to call 911, and no need to have your hair on fire as a result of the fifth in a chain of events following a fuel leak. If we look at declaring an emergency as a marker of failure by a pilot, we're looking at it wrong. Declaring is a risk management technique, and it provides some additional margin of probability that one can do what one needs to do next.

Getting that across to people is next to impossible.

 

[Skylane81E]

Honestly watching it again, I would bet that the pilot would have not declared had he not been asked if he was. Had the tower just said "roger cleared to land" that would have probably been it. Given that that is what the pilot was after he would not have been wrong to skip declaring had he been cleared #1 to land with out saying the evil "e" word.

As it happened, the tower asked, the pilot responded in the affirmative, and the tower had to ask again two more times before he believed it.

 

[Henning]

I guess having almost died three times my definition of immediate and life threatening danger is quite a bit different than most. If it's not an immediate and life threatening situation it's not an emergency.

Thing is, your definition is not codified anywhere. Fuel smell from a leaky fuel valve means you have a potential to have a fuel/air mix in the belly heading aft towards electrical circuits, IIRC your master solenoid is back there, and it can spark when you turn it off. Airplane electrics/electronics are not built 'intrinsically safe'. Remember, Todd's plane blew up on the runway, there was just a smell of gas in the cockpit.

Thing is, the real question is why avoid it? What benefit is there to anyone for not declaring and rolling the equipment? The only thing saved by not declaring is a couple buck of fuel in crash truck. All that happens when you declare an emergency is that you will get help faster if you need it because everybody will be in gear and rolling while you're still flying.

 

[EdFred]

Thing is, your definition is not codified anywhere. Fuel smell from a leaky fuel valve means you have a potential to have a fuel/air mix in the belly heading aft towards electrical circuits, IIRC your master solenoid is back there, and it can spark when you turn it off. Airplane electrics/electronics are not built 'intrinsically safe'. Remember, Todd's plane blew up on the runway, there was just a smell of gas in the cockpit.

Thing is, the real question is why avoid it? What benefit is there to anyone for not declaring and rolling the equipment? The only thing saved by not declaring is a couple buck of fuel in crash truck. All that happens when you declare an emergency is that you will get help faster if you need it because everybody will be in gear and rolling while you're still flying.

Cause if it goes "whoooompf" on the runway after I put it back down and the equipment isn't there, I can upgrade to the Twinkie w/o trying to sell my plane.

 

[docmirror]

Cause if it goes "whoooompf" on the runway after I put it back down and the equipment isn't there, I can upgrade to the Twinkie w/o trying to sell my plane.

I like a man with a plan.

 

[Henning]

Cause if it goes "whoooompf" on the runway after I put it back down and the equipment isn't there, I can upgrade to the Twinkie w/o trying to sell my plane.

Gear could still be there and you end up with a total if it whooompf, and they will have morphine on hand for my burns.

 

[greghughes]

Do you go to the emergency room because you have the sniffles too?

Of course not. I won't go to the ER unless I'm close to dying in most cases. But a runny nose can't turn into the equivalent of a flaming ball of death in a matter of seconds, so it's not a good comparison. And declaring an emergency isn't the equivalent to going to the emergency room. It's more equivalent to telling one's friends to please clear a path to the bathroom before you puke all over the floor. Ok, that's not a great analogy either. I'll just give up on the analogies.

If one simply assumes declaring an emergency is a sign of weakness, the discussion is essentially over. And I'd rather not fly with someone who thinks like that. Now, that said, I will also say I don't want to fly with someone who panics and loses confidence and control at the drop of a hat. This particular video shows someone being cautious and getting back on the ground as soon as he can due to the perceived risk. If a controller asks me if I'm declaring an emergency and I need to get on the ground without delay due to a potential high risk, I'll say yes to the question, if for no other reason than because the controller may be asking me what my intent is due to conditions that require him to make a quick decision about whether he/she needs to re-sequence and inconvenience other traffic to get me on the ground.

 

[azure]

If one simply assumes declaring an emergency is a sign of weakness, the discussion is essentially over. And I'd rather not fly with someone who thinks like that.

FWIW I wouldn't either, but I don't think that's the main reason why people delay using the E-word. It's mostly because they're afraid the FAA will come around trying to find evidence that either the emergency was of the pilot's own making, or that the pilot did something at some point that violated some or other FAR. That's not an unreasonable fear either, but based on my experience, I'd say that not declaring won't necessarily prevent that from happening. There are situations where ATC is required to file paperwork that leads to an FAA investigation even though you don't declare. I also suspect that if you don't declare and it comes out later that there really WAS an immediate threat to life, you might get asked why you didn't declare.

In this situation, if I smelled an abnormal fuel odor and the source wasn't immediately obvious, I would have declared. And from that point forward, I'd make damn good and sure that everything I did was in compliance with all federal regulations.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

And from that point forward, I'd make damn good and sure that everything I did was in compliance with all federal regulations.

Once you declare, you can do whatever you need to to get safely on the ground, regulations be damned.

 

[azure]

Once you declare, you can do whatever you need to to get safely on the ground, regulations be damned.

As long as what you do that violates regs is NECESSARY to get you safely on the ground, you're okay. But I'd expect my decisions to be looked at under a microscope. Anyway I was really talking about everything I did AFTER I got on the ground. BTDT.

 

[JHW]

Emergency for fuel smell? No. I've had smoke in the cockpit and didn't declare. Fuel smell is most likey due to a leaking fuel selector valve - that measures about a 0 on scale of 1-10 for an emergency.

Yes. Any doubt about a fuel leak is a reason to get on the ground and out of the plane. If declaring an emergency expedites that then by all means, use it. It costs nothing and might be a life saver.

 

[JimNtexas]

Just coming on the radio and saying 'blah fuel blah returning to 29' is poor technique.

That's not among the phrases the controller is listening for. The pilot should have said "callsign emergency, returning to 29". The word 'emergency' tells the controller that this pilot needs priority over all other traffic.

Dancing around the 'e-word' in some kind of foolish attempt to avoid some vague paperwork issue latter is just crazy IMHO.

Once the 'e-word' was out there I respect the incident pilot's judgement with respect to where he landed, taxied, and parked.

Incidently, the phrase 'declaring an emergency' is pretty much a U.S. only radio procedure. It's not in ICAO. Had this pilot made these transmissions to a controller whose first language was not English the likelihood of real serious confusion would be high.

"Mayday [callsign] returning to 29" is actually more correct in the US, and much more correct overseas.

 

[Henning]

Technically this situation was more a "Pan Pan (pronounced Pahn Pahn) Bug Smasher 123 returning 29, smelling fuel." call.

 

[rottydaddy]

Is it an actual balanced control surface? Not all control surfaces in every plane are balanced.

I'm not talking about external counterweights or spades or anything like that, if that's what you mean... AFAIK, a rudder, if it's been repaired, repainted, or modded, has to be checked for balance between certain points on the top and bottom. My only personal experience with this was after re-covering (and repainting) a glider rudder; the mfr. is pretty strict about making sure it lies flat when suspended between two specific points. But I can't imagine a rudder on any aircraft where this factor doesn't matter. I'm pretty sure we also had to check the elevator in similar fashion, which would be logical. Change the distribution of mass on a lever (which is what a hinged surface is, really), and everything about it changes: the force at the hing point, the amount of flex of the lever, etc., etc.
There may be a range of points, possibly,and maybe with this camera, this rudder can be balanced within that range... but either way, balance has to be considered.

Sticking something on any control surface is not just something you do without considering balance... or aerodynamics. Will the airflow over the camera put torsional force on the rudder at certain speeds? Will that possibly lead to excessive loads on the rudder's structure, or the hinges, or cause flutter? It seems foolish to fly with a rig like this until those questions are also addressed. Not sure how you'd do that without a wind tunnel or a test flight, but... can anyone reasonably assume the camera will not alter the airflow at all? And if a little bit is OK, how do you quantify that "little bit"?
It might not be a problem on the first flight with the camera, so "well, it seems OK" doesn't cut it, IMHO.

 

[CT Arrow]

The purpose of declaring an emergency is to get priority to the ground or whatever is appropriate to the specific situation in case you need it. No need to wait until the knife is stuck in you to call 911, and no need to have your hair on fire as a result of the fifth in a chain of events following a fuel leak. If we look at declaring an emergency as a marker of failure by a pilot, we're looking at it wrong. Declaring is a risk management technique, and it provides some additional margin of probability that one can do what one needs to do next.

Spot on Greg!

 

[steingar]

I make a solemn promise to my POA community. If I ever feel the need to declare an emergency, I will do so without any hesitation whatsoever. And I will not in any way shape or form give a rat's assay what anyone on this board or anywhere else thinks about it. My welfare and that of my passengers are always my first and only concern.