Dear God, please tell me it gets better.

Richard

Richard

Final Approach
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Ack...city life
You experienced working pilots:

Please tell me it gets better as one claws up the ladder of professional pilot. By better I mean not having to be exposed to so much arrogance without substance of inexperienced pilots. Pray tell, could I actually expect an adherence to precision and accuracy among my co-workers?
 
Richard said:
You experienced working pilots:

Please tell me it gets better as one claws up the ladder of professional pilot. By better I mean not having to be exposed to so much arrogance without substance of inexperienced pilots. Pray tell, could I actually expect an adherence to precision and accuracy among my co-workers?
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They learn that in their second year of flying. :rolleyes:
 
Richard said:
You experienced working pilots:

Please tell me it gets better as one claws up the ladder of professional pilot. By better I mean not having to be exposed to so much arrogance without substance of inexperienced pilots. Pray tell, could I actually expect an adherence to precision and accuracy among my co-workers?
Click to expand...

You can thank all of the zero to hero set-ups along with the notorious SJS Shiny Jet Syndrome. ...
 
Richard said:
You experienced working pilots:

Please tell me it gets better as one claws up the ladder of professional pilot. By better I mean not having to be exposed to so much arrogance without substance of inexperienced pilots. Pray tell, could I actually expect an adherence to precision and accuracy among my co-workers?
Click to expand...

I think you may want to start looking for a different career path Richard....from your posts lately, you certainly don't sound very happy...

Maybe you could punch them in the face.
 
SkyHog said:
I think you may want to start looking for a different career path Richard....from your posts lately, you certainly don't sound very happy...

Maybe you could punch them in the face.
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Is that a prospective job offer? LOL

No, I think I will stay the course. I like the challenge and other stuff. It's just that I would like to see discipline, integrity, professionalism, and proficiency in flying and character. What a dreamer I am, eh?
 
Re: Dear God, please tell me it gets better. ONLY YOU CAN PREVENT FOREST FIRES.

I am not sure that things get better with experience, sorry to say.

I have had a couple of flying jobs that just didn't work out. The managers basically pushed the weather, the airplane, and the pilot (me) as far as they could, and then tried to push some more. I let these guys go and do their thing until I reached my personal limits then told them to get bent. Both of my "supervisors" were good stick and rudder pilots, so the problems there were under the "other" category. They had plenty of skill, but I had my doubts about their ability to make a sound aeronautical decision (e.g. weather, weight and balance etc....) All those "hazardous attitudes" really are still out there kids, so watch out.

If I could go back and do it again I would, because I learned more about the flying business in those short months than I did in nearly 4 years at college....

That being said: don't let them kill you Richard, if it's not safe, get out. Getting out typically gets you a steak or two from the "airport bums". I am the guy that doubts every decision he has ever made but I never doubted those decisions, ever. Ask my wife, that is bordering on the miraculous.

Hang in there, and take care of yourself.

--Matt Rogers
 
Unfortunately, the only thing that's pretty in the flying business is the airplanes. Everything else from the pilot's standpoint is varying shades of ugly.

Richard said:
You experienced working pilots:

Please tell me it gets better as one claws up the ladder of professional pilot. By better I mean not having to be exposed to so much arrogance without substance of inexperienced pilots. Pray tell, could I actually expect an adherence to precision and accuracy among my co-workers?
Click to expand...
 
Non pilot computer professional with 35+ years. Believe me when I say there is never a shortage of people who know better than you YOUR job. I'd be willing to be the 35+ year custodian is saying the exact same thing about me.
Live with it, punch them out, or leave.
To coin an old song "Take this job and shove it!"
 
silver-eagle said:
Non pilot computer professional with 35+ years. Believe me when I say there is never a shortage of people who know better than you YOUR job. I'd be willing to be the 35+ year custodian is saying the exact same thing about me.
Live with it, punch them out, or leave.
To coin an old song "Take this job and shove it!"
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Exactly. Don't think aviation has a monopoly on such types. Don't know if it helps.....
 
People with huge egos are everywhere. Look at the excuses being given on Wall Street and some other firms that are aviation in nature that have failed: it was the market melt down that caused lack of new financing, etc. Never their fault for being aggressive at the top of an economic cycle where money was flowing freely. What a great time to pay down debt, build up equity and position ones' self for a contraction.

In my business I had a young guy really tear into me at an airport party couple years ago. He bought a new plane, car, house and was doing it all buying houses and flipping them: debt out the gazoo. He asked what I did and I told him. He told me I was stupid to deal with al the c%$p I was putting up with in the development process. I should just buy houses and flip them.

Within the last year, he has disappeared and one asset after another is gone. He's not bragging at parties, but is you know him, none of it was his fault; everyone was doing it.

Build your credentials; continue school, work on self improvement, be professional: most of these other guys will wind up being rewarded in direct correlation to what they put in over time.

Remember the story about the bird that flew south for the winter late and the three morals to that story.

Best,

Dave
 
silver-eagle said:
Non pilot computer professional with 35+ years. Believe me when I say there is never a shortage of people who know better than you YOUR job. I'd be willing to be the 35+ year custodian is saying the exact same thing about me.
Live with it, punch them out, or leave.
To coin an old song "Take this job and shove it!"
Click to expand...

It's the same everywhere. At my joint, you'd think our dumb ol' company managed to buy the other guys by inheriting the money. We weren't doing anything right. They keep renaming what we were doing for 5 years ago and saying they invented it. The fun part is they have no idea the pitfalls we worked through, so we're gonna have fun watching them deal with it.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
People with huge egos are everywhere. Look at the excuses being given on Wall Street and some other firms that are aviation in nature that have failed: it was the market melt down that caused lack of new financing, etc. Never their fault for being aggressive at the top of an economic cycle where money was flowing freely. What a great time to pay down debt, build up equity and position ones' self for a contraction.

In my business I had a young guy really tear into me at an airport party couple years ago. He bought a new plane, car, house and was doing it all buying houses and flipping them: debt out the gazoo. He asked what I did and I told him. He told me I was stupid to deal with al the c%$p I was putting up with in the development process. I should just buy houses and flip them.

Within the last year, he has disappeared and one asset after another is gone. He's not bragging at parties, but is you know him, none of it was his fault; everyone was doing it.

...
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Look what happened to last maroon they did "Flip This House" around. He was defaulting last year after they showed how swift he was in his leased Hummer and the "Plaza" he "bought" and was going to name after himself where he was merely renting an office. He was the guy who told his guys to just put a new floor patch in the bathroom hole showing the 3 feet of standing water under the house. Actually, he took the whole family on a vacation while they were working on that one. When people would post the facts his wife would answer that they were just jealous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_This_House_(TV_series)#Season_Three_2
 
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mikea said:
Look what happened to last maroon they did "Flip This House" around. He was defaulting last year after they showed how swift he was in his leased Hummer and the "Plaza" he bought where he was merely renting an office. He was the guy who told his guys to just put a new floor patch in the bathroom hole showing the 3 feet of standing water under the house. Actually, he took the whole family on a vacation while they were working on that one. When people would post the facts his wife would answer that they were just jealous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_This_House_(TV_series)#Season_Three_2
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That kind of crap is part of the reason I don't watch TV. :(
 
Realistically Richard, unless you are the one in charge of hiring, firing, standards, and disciplinary action, I don't think that you will be able to surround yourself with pilots who live up to your expectations in any level of aviation. Even then it will be difficult since people sometimes interview very differently than how they actually turn out. In other cases the people you actually want may not be within your budgetary requirements.

There are a lot of questionable pilots out there but there are also a lot of questionable employers. I don't know if it is different than any other field of work, though. I doubt it.

Personally I don't tend to worry about what other pilots are doing; how they are using the radio; how they are flying the pattern. All that is something I have no control over so I'm not about to give myself an ulcer over it. I just try to avoid hitting anyone....
 
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Thanks, Mari. Ya'know, my belief that every pilot out there is trying to kill me has only been reaffirmed by this current experience. I would like it to be different; I would like it if we all were able to objectively listen (to better discern) to what the other pilot is thinking...I guess I'm too idealistic....

OTOH, amongst CFIs they talk about heirarchy of learning...ways people learn, etc. Is that all rubbish, practically speaking????????

I mean, once a pilot gets out from under the umbrella of dual instruction that they just do whatever the hell they damn well please? Is there not a standard...a standard of "forever learning", implied is an attitude of humility...that perhaps "my" way is not the most correct way? To me, the standard is not from within oneself but from outside; that we pilots decide to adhere to an unspoken (or perhaps said) dictate of how to operate, to be open-minded, to not be so adamant about being "right"..."free and correct". Not merely to "get a lawn" but to strive to be aware.

Is "siuational awareness" an ideal which surpasses the multitude? Is it too much to ask that a pilot be able to hold a constellation of aircraft in his head? M'God, it's a thinking man's game of which we engage ourselves. Is it more true that we--whether advocation or occupation--that we just do...without thought?

Then again, (true story) the first two cars in Kansas had a head-on collision. WTF?

I have tried and tried to disprove Dr Chein's oft quoted "We have met the enemy..." (apologies to Pogo) yet have repeatedly failed.

Half of my co-workers I doubt would survive in, say the LA basin. Not because they couldn't navigate but because they could not (would not?) be able to complete the pieces to the puzzle which is SA. (There is nothing so strenuously difficult about the LA basin, in fact it is a joy to work in the controlled airspace because of the certitude of "professionals".)

My doubts arise from my firm belief that if they flubbed a radio call--which they repeatedly do--coupled with an over reliance on the microphone in lieu of aviating, they somehow feel they have fulfilled their pilot obligation so then can permissably ignore that which is to follow as they careen down their flight path. Pray to God for ever whom crosses their path...with passengers I mind you.

Thank you all who have replied in this thread.
 
Wait, there's more....

The pilot who descends suddenly from S&L to 1,500 fpm...to skirt a canyon wall at 50'

The pilot who continues to query the following traffic (same type, same pwr settings) how far behind me are you now? Every rock and bush...same query while on CTAF regardless of arriving and departing traffic.

The same pilot who says he's slowing while following traffic says he's increasing speed to join on formation, never mind the two aircraft between those two yahoos.

The pilot who says, "Not in sight" to preceeding traffic, then adds, "I'm in trail". Really? If he's not in sight how do you know? Suspect, yes; know, no.

The pilot who pushes the nose over to "dive bomb" company traffic for a photo opportunity....

I know, what a jerk I am to insist on some modicum of "professionalism".

Nick suggested I find something else...to that I say I have a goal. This season ends in November. To last the season is my most immediate goal.
 
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Richard said:
I mean, once a pilot gets out from under the umbrella of dual instruction that they just do whatever the hell they damn well please? .
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Well He-- yeah ! why not.?
 
Mari, regarding your not being too worried...I guess this flying the same route day in and day out is the diff.

Until this job I just didn't mind how another pilot operated. I may think to myself he's an ass or whatever but it would be like water off a duck's back to me. I guess it's the close confines of the routing that brings it to bear for me.

The most enjoyable is when I am far in front of the gaggle or purposely lagging far behind. That is when I can ignore.

You are saying you ignore, aren't you?
 
Richard said:
Mari, regarding your not being too worried...I guess this flying the same route day in and day out is the diff.

Until this job I just didn't mind how another pilot operated. I may think to myself he's an ass or whatever but it would be like water off a duck's back to me. I guess it's the close confines of the routing that brings it to bear for me.

The most enjoyable is when I am far in front of the gaggle or purposely lagging far behind. That is when I can ignore.

You are saying you ignore, aren't you?
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I don't know enough about your job to be able to say what I would do. Are the people you are complaining about employed by your company? If so, have you spoken to the chief pilot or person in charge? Do they care? Why do you need to fly in a group or does everyone just need to follow the same route? If all the operators are following the same route you would think they would all enter the pattern in the same way every time, depending on the runway in use.

I general, I would take care of yourself. If you think you need to leave then leave. You're not going to change other people's behavior unless you have a carrot or a stick. You're certainly not going to change their personality.
 
Sounds an awful lot like the Grand Canyon tour pilot I talked to briefly on Saturday. He said he left an RJ job for it, but certainly didn't sound too happy. He only knew exactly what he needed for his rote route.
 
smigaldi said:
I am just curious does anyone ever have a job that does not suck?. Seriously, I know of no ideal situation when it comes to WORK. If work was not work we would call it FUN.

I just keep thinking..."suck it up cupcake, this is life"
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But we'd like to think there are degrees of suckitude. Compare working for Google with working for ....ummmmm..... Lehman Bros?
 
silver-eagle said:
Non pilot computer professional with 35+ years. Believe me when I say there is never a shortage of people who know better than you YOUR job. I'd be willing to be the 35+ year custodian is saying the exact same thing about me.
Live with it, punch them out, or leave.
To coin an old song "Take this job and shove it!"
Click to expand...

Absolutely - you'll find it in every single field on the face of the earth.

And, it's my opinion that it only gets worse in those professions that require some kind of advanced or special knowledge - any kind of trade, medicine, science, law, and flying.

Further, it's been my experience that there are to kinds of people who "know better" than you. First, there are those that are actually trying to help you better yourself, and those you listen to. Second, there are those that the louder they talk, the less they know.

The difference is almost always readily apparent. At least in my experience.
 
If it were supposed to be fun, they wouldn't call it work.


Seriously though, I think what you are seeing is the end result of the current economics of aviation. Airline wannabes spend 1000 hrs sitting right seat as CFIs, not because they want to, but because they have to. Do they care? No. If they went to a pilot mill for their CFI, their CFI had the same attitude, and so on.

I'm fortunate, I've only had one bogus CFI. The rest have taken it seriously and I have learned well from them.
 
flyersfan31 said:
If it were supposed to be fun, they wouldn't call it work.
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Exactly. They wouldn't pay you either... oh wait...

flyersfan31 said:
Seriously though, I think what you are seeing is the end result of the current economics of aviation. Airline wannabes spend 1000 hrs sitting right seat as CFIs, not because they want to, but because they have to. Do they care? No. If they went to a pilot mill for their CFI, their CFI had the same attitude, and so on.
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I think the lower end jobs in aviation have always been pretty crappy unless you find the right niche. Why? Because it sounds like a cool thing to do. Flying is something that people pay thousands of dollars to do... as recreation. In the past there was, perhaps, the carrot of a high paying airline job somewhere in the future. I don't think that is particularly true anymore but who knows. Still, there is kind of romance that attracts people. It's a very seductive business, and one where it is unfortunately easy to exploit the idealistic.

That said, I've gotten to do a lot of cool things in my career and I was selective enough about what I did that I never had to live on the poverty line. I've never made real big money either. I might have advanced faster if I had been more of a climber, interested in hours rather than quality of life, but even if it ends tomorrow I'm glad I did it that way.
 
smigaldi said:
I am just curious does anyone ever have a job that does not suck?. Seriously, I know of no ideal situation when it comes to WORK. If work was not work we would call it FUN.

I just keep thinking..."suck it up cupcake, this is life"
Click to expand...

My job doesn't suck, although I do run into a fair number of people who think they're God's gift. I like my job. As for the jerks, well, I just ignore 'em. They can try all they'd like to either claim I'm not as good as they think I think I am or that they're better, but I don't really care one way or another what they think or even about our relative accomplishments. I'm just having fun!:cheerswine:

Oh, so now you want to know what my job is?;)

I'm a professor at a pretty good little university and I get to spend large amounts of time with students, and large amounts of time outdoors looking at rocks. Life is good.

Now, 15 months ago, life was not so good. I was a dean, and my boss (the provost and second-in-command at the university) was a huge problem. He had no idea how to manage scientists and science programs, but that didn't stop him from criticizing my efforts, even though he could offer no alternatives. After a year of increasing stress (I had been doing fine until he arrived), I decided it wasn't worth it and quit the job, even though it meant a 40% pay cut. I will tell you, it was worth every penny of that pay cut.

Judy
 
judypilot said:
My job doesn't suck, although I do run into a fair number of people who think they're God's gift. I like my job. As for the jerks, well, I just ignore 'em. They can try all they'd like to either claim I'm not as good as they think I think I am or that they're better, but I don't really care one way or another what they think or even about our relative accomplishments. I'm just having fun!:cheerswine:

Oh, so now you want to know what my job is?;)

I'm a professor at a pretty good little university and I get to spend large amounts of time with students, and large amounts of time outdoors looking at rocks. Life is good.

Now, 15 months ago, life was not so good. I was a dean, and my boss (the provost and second-in-command at the university) was a huge problem. He had no idea how to manage scientists and science programs, but that didn't stop him from criticizing my efforts, even though he could offer no alternatives. After a year of increasing stress (I had been doing fine until he arrived), I decided it wasn't worth it and quit the job, even though it meant a 40% pay cut. I will tell you, it was worth every penny of that pay cut.

Judy
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And you still get to live and fly in God's Country. Not a bad deal at all.
 
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