Dealing with a Presidential TFR

StinkBug

StinkBug

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Some of you may have seen my thread about flying my Mooney across the country this summer. Well I just noticed that the President has decided to take his vacation at the same time, and to the same place as my most important stop.

The TFR will be centered around Martha's Vineyard which was my backup airport. The airport I really wanna land at is 5B6, just outside the 10NM inner core. I'm Instrument rated and have no problem filing a flight plan, but since there are no instrument approaches, or even an FBO there is that going to cause me problems?

Also I'm supposed to be departing before the TFR ends. Am I going to be able to take off again?
 
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StinkBug said:
Some of you may have seen my thread about flying my Mooney across the country this summer. Well I just noticed that the President has decided to take his vacation at the same time, and to the same place as my most important stop.

The TFR will be centered around Martha's Vineyard which was my backup airport. The airport I really wanna land at is 5B6, just outside the 10NM inner core. I'm Instrument rated and have no problem filing a flight plan, but since there are no instrument approaches, or even an FBO there is that going to cause me problems?
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The only thing that would worry me is if it were in IMC with no instrument approaches. You could always divert somewhere else until the weather improves. Also, just make a stop somewhere else for gas.
 
I'm not stopping for gas, I'm stopping for 4 days to visit my grandparents, which is the whole reason for the trip. Unfortunately the president will be there from Aug 8-23, and I'm supposed to be there from Aug 18-22.

Obviously if it's IMC I'd be diverting regardless of the TFR, though MVY would have been my first choice, which definitely won't be available.
 
My understanding was that flights needed to go to some gateway airport to get looked over by the TSA blah blah blah. Not sure if personal GA can follow that protocol. Normally these things only last a few hours so I just plan around them but yeah the Martha's Vineyard one sucks since its for like two weeks right in peak season.
 
StinkBug said:
I'm not stopping for gas, I'm stopping for 4 days to visit my grandparents, which is the whole reason for the trip. Unfortunately the president will be there from Aug 8-23, and I'm supposed to be there from Aug 18-22.

Obviously if it's IMC I'd be diverting regardless of the TFR, though MVY would have been my first choice, which definitely won't be available.
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Why not KHYA? If your destination is close to 5B6, why would you plan MVY?

Actually, you don't need to explain to me. I'm just suggesting KHYA instead of MVY as an alternate to 5B6 if the weather doesn't cooperate (too bad you couldn't go into Otis - I'm assuming you can't).
 
If you are outside the 10NM inner ring but inside the 30NM outter ring...filing an IFR flight plan is all you need and should not have a problem. All you need to penetrate the outer ring is to to "talking and squawking" on an IFR or VFR flight plan. It is not an impenetrable fortress that some make it out to be.

If you wanna land AT the AF1 airport or within the 10NM inner ring, then you have to go through a gateway airport with advance coordination.

Bottom line if you file an IFR flight plan and AF1 is not taking off or departing around your arrival time it should be a non event and not restrict you from going.

Your question about no approcahes is however a valid one. I have heard reports from other pilots of being denied a Visual Approach inside a POUTS TFR...and since that will be your only option...a call into the local TRACON to ask about procedures would be the way to go.
 
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Have to agree KHYA would be a good alternate,nice approachs,without any hassles.
 
StinkBug said:
The TFR will be centered around Martha's Vineyard which was my backup airport.
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Seems like we see this message every August ... I looked to see if it was a revival of a necro-post, but its not. Luckily, I've only had issue with the POTUS TFR once in souther california on a trip there. It seemed ATC wasn't happy either. I was maneuvering to stay clearof the TFR, and ATC vectored me a short cut across the outer ring and near the inner (it seemed on purpose).
 
Bob Noel said:
Why not KHYA? If your destination is close to 5B6, why would you plan MVY?

Actually, you don't need to explain to me. I'm just suggesting KHYA instead of MVY as an alternate to 5B6 if the weather doesn't cooperate (too bad you couldn't go into Otis - I'm assuming you can't).
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KHYA will now be my alternate, and possibly my destination depending on the red tape. Reason for 5B6 or MVY is that my grandparents live in Falmouth very near to where the ferry to MV lands. 5B6 is easy land transport, and MVY is easy once I take the ferry. They are getting older and I'm trying to make this as easy for them as possible, even if it's a bit more of a pain for me.

HYA isn't that far from them distance wise, but I'm sure anyone who has driven on the cape knows how long it takes to get anywhere. Driving from their house to HYA is 45min at a minimum, even though it's only like 15 miles.

It's seeming like landing shouldn't be an issue, assuming VMC. Now I'm just worried about leaving again. Filing is easy enough, but what if I cant pick up ATC on the ground? I'm thinking that the usual "take off and contact when airborne" is not gonna fly here, pun intended.
 
You can file and activate a VFR flight plan. On the ground (1-800-WX-BRIEF) for departure when a tower is not available.

You must be squawking and talking.

IFR will do it, too, but it's not necessary. On the ground, you may have to call for a phone clearance with a void time.

Watch the TFR right up to the last minute. They move around sometimes. Usually only in time, but they can shift as well.

There are certain activities that are prohibited inside an outer ring VIP TFR, but a straight cross country flight on a flight plan is not one of them. Just don't decide you want to do a few touch'n'goes. Flight training is not allowed.
 
MAKG1 said:
Watch the TFR right up to the last minute. They move around sometimes. Usually only in time, but they can shift as well.
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This one's a super TFR... the President is vacationing on Martha's Vineyard for a few weeks so the TFR is in place from Aug 7-23 and the core covers the whole island. :mad2:

According the the ForeFlight map though 5B6 is just right outside the core so maybe you can sneak in with just a flight plan and careful routing.
 
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Yeah it looks like 5B6 is only in the inner ring of the shorter arrival TFR scheduled for Friday, which wont effect me. I talked to the airport manager there today and he gave me some good info on dealing with it. Also told me that Cape TRACON is quite helpful and are well versed on dealing with this one, since it's become a yearly thing.
 
MAKG1 said:
You can file and activate a VFR flight plan. On the ground (1-800-WX-BRIEF) for departure when a tower is not available
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Do not do this! A VFR flight plan isn't seen by ATC. This is NOT squawking and talking as fss does not as far as I know issue squawk codes to pilots filling vfr flight plans. The talking part means atc. FSS ain't atc.

Call the TRACON before departure, have them issue you a squawk and provide a frequency.
 
Approach_controller said:
Do not do this! A VFR flight plan isn't seen by ATC. This is NOT squawking and talking as fss does not as far as I know issue squawk codes to pilots filling vfr flight plans. The talking part means atc. FSS ain't atc.

Call the TRACON before departure, have them issue you a squawk and provide a frequency.
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Good to know, thanks. I may be doing the same thing, but to 2B1.
 
The only thing I can add is that around here (Denver area) ATC got real nervous when I got within 2 miles of the 10 mile ring. Cape TRACON probably has more experience with the TFR and the "gentlefolk" in the dark suits with the curly wire around their ear.

Anyway, go IFR and pick up your clearance on the ground even outside the 30 mile ring. There is some argument about whether or not it's necessary to pick it up on the ground if you're outside the 30 mile ring but so what? it's easy enough to do and it ensures you are in compliance with the TFR. Don't cancel until you are on the ground if you are within the 30 mile ring. When leaving you can cancel once you're outside the 30 mile ring and the F-16's will leave you alone (or at least they didn't bother me).

Did I mention that I think the presidential TFR is a bunch of horse-crap? I can get a rental truck and do a lot more damage than I could with my little airplane...
 
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Flying inside a Presidential TFR really isn't that big of a deal whether VFR (flight plan) or IFR. When Obama came to NY a few weeks ago it was really easy to get my squawk code on the ground and fly like it didn't exist.
 
Approach_controller said:
Do not do this! A VFR flight plan isn't seen by ATC. This is NOT squawking and talking as fss does not as far as I know issue squawk codes to pilots filling vfr flight plans. The talking part means atc. FSS ain't atc.

Call the TRACON before departure, have them issue you a squawk and provide a frequency.
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The TFR specifically says that you have to be on either an IFR or VFR flight plan AND in constant communication. To me that means you cant just be talking, and you can't just file a VFR plan, you must do both.

Not saying you're wrong in what you're saying, as I'm pretty sure you know more than I do, but per the wording of the TFR you have to do more than JUST squawk and talk.
 
Approach_controller said:
Do not do this! A VFR flight plan isn't seen by ATC. This is NOT squawking and talking as fss does not as far as I know issue squawk codes to pilots filling vfr flight plans. The talking part means atc. FSS ain't atc.

Call the TRACON before departure, have them issue you a squawk and provide a frequency.
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VFR flight plan does NOT negate the need for flight following on a discrete code if that is what you are implying but read the POTUS TFR, but a VFR flight plans IS required as well as squawking and talking.
 
Seriously, I had no idea. We just get told squawking and talking is good to go. I've seen probably every form of TFR and I learned something from you guys I was sure I knew cold.
 
jordane93 said:
Flying inside a Presidential TFR really isn't that big of a deal whether VFR (flight plan) or IFR. When Obama came to NY a few weeks ago it was really easy to get my squawk code on the ground and fly like it didn't exist.
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I had the same experience departing #1 from an airport. Air Force 2 was #2 for departure. I think I was the last to get off the ground, but honestly i just asked and they gave me a code and sent me on my way, VFR direct to the south. Once outside of the class delta, squawk VFR
 
Approach_controller said:
Do not do this! A VFR flight plan isn't seen by ATC. This is NOT squawking and talking as fss does not as far as I know issue squawk codes to pilots filling vfr flight plans. The talking part means atc. FSS ain't atc.

Call the TRACON before departure, have them issue you a squawk and provide a frequency.
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How about read the TFR?

G. For operations within the airspace between the 10 nmr and 30 nmr area(s) listed above, known as the outer ring(s): All aircraft operating within the outer ring(s) listed above are limited to aircraft arriving or departing local airfields, and workload permitting, ATC may authorize transit operations. Aircraft may not loiter. All aircraft must be on an active IFR or VFR flight plan with a discrete code assigned by an air traffic control (ATC) facility. Aircraft must be squawking the discrete code prior to departure and at all times while in the TFR and must remain in two-way radio communications with ATC.
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A VFR flight plan plus flight following is perfectly legitimate.

There is no excuse for not reading this.
 
gitmo234 said:
I had the same experience departing #1 from an airport. Air Force 2 was #2 for departure. I think I was the last to get off the ground, but honestly i just asked and they gave me a code and sent me on my way, VFR direct to the south. Once outside of the class delta, squawk VFR
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The VP TFR is a lot simpler and less hassle. It's akin to the outer ring of the POTUS TFR. The inner ring of the POTUS TFR is a big deal though and not nearly as simple to deal with for GA pilots.

In the case of Martha's Vineyard the whole island is inside the inner ring of a POTUS TFR for two weeks in peak season. That is a huge annoyance for any GA pilot hoping to take a summer trip there.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
In the case of Martha's Vineyard the whole island is inside the inner ring of a POTUS TFR for two weeks in peak season. That is a huge annoyance for any GA pilot hoping to take a summer trip there.
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Yep, and of course Obama is totally oblivious to this.

Luckily, Block Island is well outside even the outer ring. I've never been to MVY, but from what I've heard BID is nicer anyway, and I can vouch for it being a mighty beautiful destination. :yes:

</sour grapes>
 
Block Island is a cool place. There was some decent surf on the west side of the island last time I was there. And no crowds. I just need a bigger plane to carry my longboards... I should start a thread asking if I can bungee them to the bottom of the fuselage...
 
I was going to suggest BID. I've been there a lot, and always enjoyed it.
 
azure said:
For the rest of us yes, it wouldn't help the OP much though since he's going to visit family near Falmouth.
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Exactly, that's why I didn't bring it up previously.
 
Can he fly to BID, rent a dingy, and row over?
 
MAKG1 said:
How about read the TFR?



A VFR flight plan plus flight following is perfectly legitimate.

There is no excuse for not reading this.
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IMHO, (for what that is worth)

The response is a bit excessive. Approach_Controller was just trying to be helpful based on his perspective as a Controller. He was corrected and stated that he appreciated learning from the posts. That should have been the end of it.

Kevin
 
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Just dealt with one today...with no flight plan. :hairraise:Dodged a few SAMs and out ran our escort but we made it through in one piece.
 

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Crud, I am in Dartmouth for business and i was going to look into renting a plane tomorrow. I even brought my headset. :(
 
N53KL said:
IMHO, (for what that is worth)

The response is a bit excessive. Approach_Controller was just trying to be helpful based on his perspective as a Controller. He was corrected and stated that he appreciated learning from the posts. That should have been the end of it.

Kevin
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First off, thank you for the defense.

I got out of flying right about the time that TFR's hit in full force post 9/11, so the whole you must file a VFR flight plan ruling is something I never knew as a pilot and have never heard as a controller. My concern was the seemingly pervasive thought in GA that ATC and FSS are nearly interchangeable entities.

As to asking me to read the TFR, I generally do not call FSS for a briefing prior to work, or whatever is the new era internet version of that. Squawking and talking? Good. Filed a VFR flight plan, departed squawking 1200 on the cell with FSS, I have no idea who you are. I readily admit to misreading pretty solid advice (ie clearance on the ground etc)

We can argue semantics all day long, but I've worked thousands of aircraft through over 1,000 individual TFR's at this point (including numerous medevacs with critical patients on board who likely didn't have time to file with FSS). If you NEED to be on an FSS VFR flight plan, I didn't know that until this thread came out.
 
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Some day, somewhere, in a more perfect world the Prez is going to decide to hop over to some Podunk town to shovel donor money into AirForce One by the scoop full and there will be someone with a pending business deal that needs to be near there, or a public event that has been there on that date for decades Likely it will be an attorney who can file suits without having to pay another lawyer - who will go to a federal judge and demand that the Governemnt show cause as to why they need to bar the public from using the public air space without previous notice and without doing a study of the costs to the public (which is a requirement in any public taking)
I hope I live long enough to see it.
 
Read the TFR. You can fly into and out of MVY. You don't even have to be IFR. You do have to stop on the way at HPN, PVD, or HYA for a quick TSA screening.
 
acrophile said:
Read the TFR. You can fly into and out of MVY. You don't even have to be IFR. You do have to stop on the way at HPN, PVD, or HYA for a quick TSA screening.
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Would you call that a "voluntary" search and seizure?
 
StinkBug said:
Yeah it looks like 5B6 is only in the inner ring of the shorter arrival TFR scheduled for Friday, which wont effect me. I talked to the airport manager there today and he gave me some good info on dealing with it. Also told me that Cape TRACON is quite helpful and are well versed on dealing with this one, since it's become a yearly thing.
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Ya done the right thing by calling that airport manager. If you have time call some more nearby airports/FBO's in the same ATC facilities airspace. You should get a pretty good handle on works and what doesn't around there.
 
I'm here in Falmouth now, and landed at 5B6. I actually called Cape TRACON yesterday and asked them so I could get it straight. They told me I just needed to be squawking and talking by the time I hit the 30 mile ring. I then rephrased my question to verify that simply picking up flight following would be enough and he said absolutely. As it turned out I ended up coming in IFR anyways because of weather.
 
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